#59 You, A Beginner's Guide: From Burnout to Breakthrough with Toni Jones

In this deeply personal and illuminating episode, I sit down with journalist, author, and visionary founder of the Shelf Help Club, Toni Jones. Toni has spent the last decade immersed in the world of personal development—reading over 1,000 books and interviewing the industry’s most influential voices—to discover what it truly takes to move from simply consuming wisdom to actually living it. 

Toni shares her raw and relatable journey of hitting a "car crash" moment of professional and physical burnout while working as an editor for some of the world's largest news organizations. We dive into the life-changing moment her husband gave her a "permission slip" to walk away from a 15-year career to find a life of alignment and self-compassion. 

We explore:

• The Connected Self Method: Toni’s three-part framework of Self-Discovery, Life Design, and Life Support. 
• The Catalyst Book: How a chance encounter with a Paul McKenna book in an Oxfam shop sparked a decade-long transformation. 
• Who Are You Becoming?: Why the questions we ask ourselves are often more important than the books we read. 
• The Power of Community: How the Shelf Help Club grew into a global movement of 25,000 people seeking authentic connection. 

Whether you are navigating your own "dark night of the soul" or are simply ready to expand into the next version of yourself, this conversation is a beautiful reminder that you are allowed to change your life in a single decision. 

Connect with Toni Jones:

• Website: shelfhelp.club  
• New Book: You, A Beginner’s Guide (Launching May 2026 in partnership with The Pound Project)  
• Community: Find her on Substack  

For your opportunity to win a LIVE coaching call with Josephine submit your 5star reviews on Spotify and Apple Music and send screen shots to josephinemcgrail@icloud.com

Winners are announced on the 1st of every month

Transcript

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Josephine McGrail: Yay! Oh my god, this is so wonderful. Dear listeners out there, I'm sitting down with a dear friend of mine, Miss Tony Jones, Mrs. Tony Jones, and before I…

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Josephine McGrail: read up her beautiful intro, I just want to mention that I've been wanting to see this beautiful woman for a very long time. And not only did it take her writing a book.

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Josephine McGrail: And me starting a podcast for us to finally get together and go, okay, let's make this happen. And so, you know, things happen when they're meant to happen, and without further ado, it is just such an honor and a joy to have you here in the podcast chair today. Tony. I am going to read up your intro. So, here I am, thrilled to introduce Mrs. Tony Jones, a journalist

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Josephine McGrail: and all for now, and a visionary funder, founder of the Shelf Help Club.

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Josephine McGrail: The world's first personal development book club.

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Josephine McGrail: After navigating her own path through burnout, Tony dedicated a decade to the world of self-improvement, reading over 1,000 books and interviewing some of the most influential voices in the industry to find what truly resonates. She has distilled that mountain of wisdom in her debut book, You, A Beginner's Guide, which launches this May in partnership with The Pound Project.

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Josephine McGrail: Tony's mission is refreshingly grounded. She believes we don't need to become someone new, but rather understand who we already are.

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Josephine McGrail: Through her three-part framework of self-discovery, life design, and life support, she helps a global community of over 25,000 people move from just consuming ideas to actually living them. Tony, welcome to the show! I'm so excited to have you here! Welcome, welcome!

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Thank you, I'm so happy to be here. So this is my first interview about the book, so I have notes everywhere, because I'm like, timelines and books, and also timelines, because

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Josie, like you mentioned, we've known each other for a while, and I was looking back, because you actually were such a huge part of my… the beginning of my self-help journey, shall we say. So you mentioned 10 years… 10 years since I've been immersed in this stuff.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): this… that wasn't the plan. It was… as many people find self-help, it was a kind of… a moment of desperation that led me to reading the first book, and then…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): as we'll talk about, I'm sure, that book then leads off to… leads to the next book, leads to the next idea, leads to a yoga class with these, beautiful Nordic sisters, leads to a retreat, leads to talking about it, so all these things, and as I just mentioned before we went live, the idea, like, looking back over all the books I've…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I haven't looked back over all the books I've read, but I've been looking at all the books we've read as a community, which is 64, so mine will be 65, with the club. So looking back at those books over the 10 years, and the 8 years of shelf help.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): at the time, I was like… I just… I thought I just chose them randomly, and maybe I, you know, in the moment, I… somebody was talking about it, or I met the author, or I liked the cover, or whatever reason. But actually, looking back, I can feel a real arc of

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): development of me, of my business, of, yeah, of my understanding of this industry and this space, but ultimately of

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): how I can help people best, which is, like, you've always just been such a huge expander for me in that area, so this is a very beautiful, full-circle moment, so thank you for having me.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, thank you so much. I'm actually speechless over here on this side. I didn't know this was your absolute first one about the book.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): 'S…

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Josephine McGrail: I feel so… oh, I feel so honored, even more honored! Wow, fantastic! And Todi, I, let's just remember together here. The first time I met you, because I was trying to go back in history on my side of the screen. Yeah. And I, in my head, it was you coming to one of my yin classes at Soho House, is that right?

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Josephine McGrail: Is that the first time?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): It probably was, yeah, because I was… so the first date that I have is, going… it's you helping me at my first event for Shelf Help, which was the first birthday, which was, like, 2018, so… and then the year after, I went on a retreat with you and Ida, in Burgundy in France, and that was, like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): like, a mind-blowing experience for me. So yeah, I think it probably was me

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): probably thinking, never doing yoga before, and I… and I remember that. Well, I remember your classes. I remember that it was… you used aromatherapy, and music, and you… affirmations, and all this stuff. At the time, I was like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): what the hell? I just want to, like, lie down and be still and stop my brain working, but I appreciate it now, very much.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely, because I remember you came over, you came over and said, like, you introduced yourself to me after one of those classes, and you were like.

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Josephine McGrail: who is this Louise Hay woman? And you were like, you know, I think you mentioned that you had come across her as well, and, you know, Louise Hay is still one of my biggest, greatest inspirations to this day, you know, a woman who didn't start her own company until, really, she was in her 50s, and then continued working, and continued inspiring, and still to this day is inspiring people all around the world, you know, even though she's, you know… I mean, the word expired is wrong.

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Josephine McGrail: But, you know, she's passed on to next, but her work is still living on through her, and I seem to recall that it was actually this connection about Louise Hay that you really like, because those are the informations that I was, you know, using a lot in those classes. But anyway, somehow, the universe, you know, made us cross paths in those early days, long time ago.

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Josephine McGrail: But, Tony, before we get into your book, which I am so thrilled about, and honestly.

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Josephine McGrail: This thing that you've created a community of 25,000 people globally, and again, from a desire that actually started out from wanting to deeply help yourself.

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Josephine McGrail: And then through that, as a byproduct, you know, ending up helping so many other people. It's just a, you know, absolutely incredible story, and I can't wait to dive into it. But I want to understand a little bit about you in terms of how you started out in life. And I do this with everyone. I think it's so important that in order to understand who you are today, and the work that moves you and lives through you, and is created

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Josephine McGrail: by you, we have to understand how you started out. So, if you want to share with us a little bit about where you grew up, what kind of family setup, family system, what kind of belief systems, as much or as little as you want to share, tell us a little bit about early Tony Jones' life.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, sure. So yeah, self-discovery is step one of my process, because I agree, I think it's… to work out where you want to go, you have to understand how you got to where you are, and I suppose, yeah, for me.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I have, now, quite a complicated family setup, and it started as a complicated family setup, so maybe I'll test you on this later, but, I grew up in the northwest of England, and, my parents… my dad had had two children before they got together, so I was…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the middle child for my dad, but I was the eldest child of four that he had with my mum. So I feel… I don't know if there's a book in here somewhere, but I definitely relate a lot more to being the elder sister, the elder kind of responsible

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I suppose, assumed responsibility. I don't know if I had the responsibility when I really look at it, but I think you assume a lot, don't you, as an older sibling? But then I also have the middle child stuff of not… not being seen and heard, maybe, and getting enough attention. So, growing up there, parents split when I was about 7. My dad was a big drinker, and a bit of a player, I think we would say, these days. He was a bit of a man about town, so…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): My mum moved with the four kids, to a different part of the country. We moved around quite a bit. And then eventually we settled, and I went to high school in North Wales. And then I had good school. I had made some amazing friends, some of whom I'm still really good friends with now.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I think I had an easy school. I…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I actually find it easy to make friends, which I appreciate now, and I didn't know then, is a superpower. I mean, a lot of people in my community come because they need to make friends, and they…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): and they want to connect with people. That's never been a problem for me, so I appreciate that that is something that I'm very lucky with. So, moved around a lot, made a lot of friends. I think I always had a yearning to

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): get to a big city. I grew up in quite a small town, so I went to University of Manchester, but I was just London, London, bright lights. This is too small for me. This is the… I think, like I said, maybe being… I didn't necessarily behave that well, but I never got caught with what my mum would always say to me. So, I was,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Misbehaving a bit at the weekends, doing well at school, so that was alright. I went to university.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I got my job in London, I told a little white lie. Well, I told a lie about my exam results, for this big job that I'd got. I'd signed a contract to move into a fancy flat, all this kind of stuff, and, they asked me to bring my

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): results papers on the first day of work, and when I tell this story, people are shocked, because I don't think anyone's been asked, ever, but I told a lie about what I got in my A-levels to get this job, and and I just thought they would appreciate my tenacity, maybe, but I got fired before I'd even started the job. I nearly got sued by this huge management consultant. So that sent me… sent me along a bit of a different path, maybe.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And then there was a year out, then I got a really dull job, as a

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): pricing analyst for a telecoms company, which, at the time, and now, it's not me, it wasn't me.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I think I just…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I'd always wanted to write, I'd always… I'm always interested in people. I didn't really know that was a job option. And then I had… and then at this quite dull job.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): this American new female boss came in and shook up everything by saying… interviewing people one-on-one and saying, what do you really want to do? Like, what do you really want to do? And I said something like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): senior pricing analyst, obviously. She said, she said, that's what you want to do with your life, is it? Because I think, you know, that's what you're supposed to say to your new boss. And I said to her then, so this is when I was, like, about 20…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): 22, with no… no… nobody that I knew was in media. I'd never… I'd written a lot myself, like, as a kid, but I'd never kind of shared it with anyone, and I said, I'd love to edit a magazine. And I just… and I don't even know where that came from. I think it was just, like, a kind of a deep desire to

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Share people's stories, maybe. And eventually.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Well, pretty quickly, actually, I'd moved to New York, and I was living… I lived in New York for a summer. I went to night school at NYU to study journalism.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): stayed there for a few months, hustled around, got an internship at a few places, and then I came back to London, lived on someone's sofa for a while, and I just said, does anyone know anyone who works in

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): a newspaper, or a magazine, or anything to do with writing, and somebody knew someone who worked on the Sun newspaper, and that was my kind of entry into

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Media and writing and…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): journalist's life. So, that was maybe too speedy about the childhood, but I think it's important to kind of talk about, I suppose, how you get from

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): a small town in North Wales, not really thinking… not really consciously planning.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): A lot of my life, as we will discover, has not had much strategy, but there's always been these kind of pulls to things, and I'm sure you know these as well. There's, like, pull to the bright lights, pull to writing, pull to certain people. So, yeah, I ended up working at The Sun for about 10 years.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And then… went from there.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, I love it. Let's take a breath.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Okay, sorry. It's like a therapy session, Josie.

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Josephine McGrail: No, no, you're doing amazing, and thank you so much for sharing all of that, because exactly what you just said, what you just self-reflected, which I love, you told your whole story, you're like, let me self-reflect now! Josie, I'll do the thing! So, basically, exactly like you said, this thing of, like.

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Josephine McGrail: You know, I think, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: in general, like, I always kind of have a little laugh about life, because I think it's such a joke. You know, we… in essence, it was true, though, like, you know, we grow up in a system that says you must always have a 5-year plan, and a 10-year plan, and a, you know, 20-year plan, and next life plan, and I'm like, and we die all the time. So, I'm not saying to not have a plan, or have dreams, and not take action, or aligned action, but…

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Josephine McGrail: this idea that, A, you're supposed to know what you want to do, you know, in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, is, number one, may never happen, a future that may never come, but also.

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Josephine McGrail: You don't know that version of you. You haven't met her yet. So how are you supposed to take the choice away from her? She hasn't been through, but you are about to go through and explore. So I think the fact that

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Josephine McGrail: You know, you said, oh, I didn't have much of a strategy, and yet you did. Because exactly like you said when you were self-reflecting there, you kept following an inner calling. And I know we can use those words as, like, oh, I hustled, and I did this, and I did that.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Hmm.

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Josephine McGrail: But… but it wasn't just left, right, and center, it was still in alignment with something within you calling you forward. And then you opened up, and again, because you said, you know, actually, one of your superpowers is that.

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Josephine McGrail: making friends or making new friends comes easily to you, right? So you did that, you opened up to your network, and you were like, hey! Anyone knows anything about this thing, right? Which, again, is, you know, an incredible skill to have, but also.

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Josephine McGrail: this is basic human beingness, you know, like… like, asking for help, and asking the resources, you know, that are right here with you. Like, that's living in abundance, you know? For me.

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Josephine McGrail: that's a strategy worth using, you know? Like, speak to your network, and that's what you've been doing, you know, throughout, and the same thing, like.

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Josephine McGrail: no one knows what's around the corner, but we'll never know if we don't dare to at least attempt to go there, right? And so you did. Like, every time… like, the road will reveal itself as you're walking it.

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Josephine McGrail: That is truly how you've lived, and obviously, like, I'm excited to hear where you're at now and all of that, but even, you know, so then when I was reading your, you know, your bio here, and when you had that burnout, and so I'm assuming that you…

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Josephine McGrail: you're at the sun for 10 years, and you know, again, life changes, and your goal changes, and your dreams change, because you are changing through that experience, right? And then even hitting a point in your life where you're like, hey, okay, I'm riding, but I might not be riding in the way that I want anymore. Like, something.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Hmm.

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Josephine McGrail: Do you want to take us to that pivoting point, to this moment? And I know it's never just like, oh, it was a Saturday afternoon, Josie, and all of a sudden, I was burned out. Of course it doesn't happen like that, but just in those initial stages, or in that moment.

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Josephine McGrail: Maybe just take us back in time to a moment where you physically, you just realized, I can't keep going the way I've been going. Does that make sense? Give us one.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, sure, yeah. I just, I love, I just, I love that idea of,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): you can't make plans based on… or you shouldn't necessarily make plans based on who you are now, because you're so right, like, it's… you're making plans based on such a limited knowledge, isn't it? And so… and you only know what you know, and there's all this other stuff.

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Josephine McGrail: And you're actually also, something even more important, you're actually also taking choice away from future you.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Mmm, yeah, I love that. I'm writing notes, Joan, as we go, by the way.

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Josephine McGrail: But I, I think…

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Josephine McGrail: You know, because I… especially because with my intuitive healing, and I also do oracle cards now, and manifestation talks and stuff, and people are like, so, will this thing happen in 6 months? And I'm like… I'm like, well, with… if you continue down the road that you're doing right here, right now, I can tell you whether or not that is likely to appear. However.

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Josephine McGrail: I said, if I was to tell you right now, and I'll be like, yes, this thing is gonna happen, but the thing is, you haven't met that version of you in 6 months' time. You haven't been through the ups and the downs, the ins and the outs that are gonna perhaps change your mind 360 degrees, so then in 6 months, I'll pop up in your life and be like, hey, this thing happened like you wanted it to, and you'll be like, no, I don't want it anymore!

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): So… Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: predicting… by predicting to that degree, that degree, we're actually taking choice away from ourself. We are narrowing down to a point where, like you said, because we don't know that version of ourself yet.

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Josephine McGrail: For me, that's not growth, that's not living in opportunity, that's actually imprisoning ourself.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Mmm, yeah. So there's something about being in the sweet spot, isn't there, between

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Planning and looking forward and growth.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): and then… and not just being stuck and reacting, which is what I was doing. So, when you say there probably wasn't a moment, I do remember there was a specific

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): moment that happened when… so after the son, I left, and I went to work for the Mail Online,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And I was there for a couple of years as one of the editors on the female pages. So…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): both of these news organizations are infamous, because they were the biggest in the world at the time. The Sun was the world's biggest newspaper. I kind of accidentally ended up there, stayed there for 10 years, so I appreciate that I obviously was okay at my job, because

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I stayed there, right? But I did accidentally end up there. The mail was a very much a strategic move, because this thing called the internet was happening, and I thought, I'm gonna… I probably need to learn about that. And this was the world's biggest website, but at the time, it was still… people were not using

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the web. It sounds like we sound like two old grannies now. Well, I sound like an old granny, but at the time, it was very… it was still quite new, and it was quite exciting. But these papers and these… these news organizations are infamous for a reason. It's like the turnover of content and the

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): demands and the pressure and the deadlines are huge, and for a daily newspaper, which is what the sun was, I was just working on the paper at the time, at the end of the day, it's done, right? You've written the piece about Kate Middleton's fringe, or whatever it was that day, and you've done the pictures, but it's gone to print, it's physically left the building, so whatever time you're leaving the building, you can feel, like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): tomorrow's a new day, there'll be another… there'll be another load of stories, there's another load of stuff to do. You move to online.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And that doesn't happen. So you just have this never-ending to-do list, and I just… I never made peace with that. Now… now that I know the terms for it and the understanding of it, my nervous system was not able to. I mean, I don't know if anybody's nervous system can make peace with that, but there are people there who I… still, who I hugely respect, and who I like as people.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): lots of people there who I don't, but I learned a lot, and so I was there as an editor, looking after a desk, and the hours were brutal, like, in at the desk at 7am.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Leaving sometimes at 5, 6, 7pm, with no… not really a break in between.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): But at the same time, I was doing myself no favors, and I was going out all the time, because A I had access to amazing opportunities, because I worked for the world's biggest news organization, and B, I was so miserable in my job, and some people listening might relate to this, and when I say it now, it sounds like

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): nuts. This is not… it's not a way to look after yourself. But at the time, I didn't know anything about looking after myself. I didn't care about looking after myself. I didn't… I just reacted to life. And through…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): some kind of hustle, some kind of strategy at times, I'd ended up in this place where I thought I wanted to be, where I did want to be, and so I had this career that I'd worked really hard for, so up to… by the end, it was like 15 years working in

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): very difficult news environment, so there… there also becomes that kind of, like, well, I can hack it here, I can hack… I can do anything, right? And and then you look around, and then it starts… like, I think I did it… you do things when you're new at something, you can do it for a few months, and then you think, is this hard because it's hard, or is it hard because I'm new? And then after a while, I was like, this is just insane. It's not just hard, it's…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): It's insane. So, I'm writing things… I'm writing all day, every day, or editing other people's work, not necessarily about

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): subjects that align with my values. At the time, I didn't know what my values were, but I think your body knows when you're not in alignment. Working with people who, were super stressed and ill, and, not their best selves sometimes, which I include myself, and therefore not able to be

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): my best self, either with the people I worked for, or with the people outside of life, so I'm… I'm still with my lovely husband, like, we've been now been married nearly 19 years, but if we were ever gonna not be together, that was… that was the time, because

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I… he just got whatever was left after I'd worked too hard, gone out too hard, and then… and then eventually came home, so…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the fact we're still together is… is a self-help miracle, I think. Bless… God bless him for being such an amazing guy. But there was a point where I think I'd been

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I'd… I'd been… I'd been… I had shingles, I was getting ill regularly, getting time off was so difficult. Even… even holiday that you were, like, contractually entitled to was… was difficult. It was just difficult to work there, and…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): and be churning out, kind of, being so productive as well. And I think I talked about a certain…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): conversation that had happened in a conference with, like, swearing and shouting and things like that. And Dan, my husband, who is, a pretty… if you know anything about attachment theory, he's a very secure person, he's a very secure individual. He's a photographer, he's always worked for himself, so he has clients, but he's never worked in an office environment. He's… he's like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): You know, it's not okay for people to speak to people like that.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): not just not you, but anybody. Like, that's not okay that people speak to people like that. And I was like, well, that's just how it is. And I think I've been…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I think I knew it was difficult, but I was looking around, I thought, well, these people can all do it, so I need to do it, and I've worked hard to get here, so this is just what life is now. And then he said to me, so the moment is, he said, you can just leave.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): It was literally, like, a permission slip, lightbulb moment, whatever you want to call it.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Because I just… in my head, I was like, that's… well, that's not an option. I've worked so hard for this. I… I… I cannot just leave.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And ultimately, it's like, if I hadn't have left, I don't know… I don't know what would have happened, because

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): yeah, I was not well. Like, I could talk about burnout, like, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically. Like, physical burnout is one thing, right? So, getting ill, and your immune system depleting, and not sleeping properly, or eating properly, or doing all those things, but I think the mental and emotional burnout that comes from

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Not taking care of yourself, and not living in alignment, and

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Not being proud of what you're doing, and also getting to the point of.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): like, I was probably, yeah, I was a point of self-sabotaging, and so there's not looking after yourself, and then there's blowing your life up, because subconsciously, I think.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the body and the mind is like, something needs to change here. And for some of us, we get to a point, don't we, of that burnout and that complete breakdown of,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Of the body, or the brain, or the mind.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%, wow, what a story, Tony, home, oh my god. And it's, it's… no, but it's that thing, because it's like, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: when we're in it, you know, you can't see the trees in the forest of, you know, one of those ones, right? It's so true, because it becomes normal, and because everyone else that we are surrounding ourselves with, for them, well, they are also sick, and they are also doing this.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Coping, and then you're in this, like, downward spiral where you're kind of beating yourself up at not being able to cope, or the minute your little heart goes…

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Josephine McGrail: maybe there's another way. You're immediately shutting yourself down, right? And so… so, you know, you needed someone to be an, you know, obviously it was wonderful with your husband, but you really needed someone who was an outsider. And inside, not that he understood you, and he understood your world, but an outsider enough that he wasn't part of it like that. So he could… he could give you debt, and not even a permission, but an option, just like…

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Josephine McGrail: You know? But there's that thing also, not only because you had, you know, you had fought so hard, not just to get the job, but to keep the job.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: I really love the saying, there's the saying that, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: You are allowed to change your life in a single decision.

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Josephine McGrail: You are allowed to walk away from anything and anyone in a single decision, even if, at one point that thing or that person saved you.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): None.

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Josephine McGrail: And I think it's so juicy, because it's like, it's, you know, ambition is also usually… I'm not saying that ambition is always just coming from a beautiful, amazing place, or wanting to do good, and, you know, express ourselves fully and all of that, but very often ambition is, you know, usually it also comes from a lot of pain. And so then.

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Josephine McGrail: that getting that job, or getting that relationship, or getting that house, or whatever it is we dream of, quite often it's kind of like it's a savior. It gives us a little bit of a plaster on the ring. That's not to say we shouldn't be ambitious, or not, you know, look after our dreams and breathe life into it, but it does mean that sometimes we can really find ourselves in those situations where we were like.

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Josephine McGrail: But this has kept me alive! And not only does it look good on paper and all of that, but it's… you know, there's always a reason for why we stay in something, even if that's something.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Ends up being, you know… kind… not kind of, greatly toxic. So, anyway, here we are.

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Josephine McGrail: And at this moment, because this is another thing, Dan could have said it, like, 6 months prior, 2 years prior.

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Josephine McGrail: You heard it when you were ready to hear it, you know, right?

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Josephine McGrail: So, here you are, and you're going, something within you is clicking, thank God he said those words, he's probably said them before, but this day, you were like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: You've got the beans! Right? And so, so then what happens? You go in…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): So then, I kind of leave, I hand my notice in, I'm still doing shifts, because, you know, it's like breaking the cord, gently, gently, but I've got to tell you this just about Ambition, Josie, because you'll love this, because I… I'd love… I want people to know that

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): you can be ambitious. It doesn't mean that you have to be… ambition looks different on… for different people, sorry, should I say? So I think when I was working in the newspaper, and I looked around the newsroom, and I'm looking at my boss, and my boss's boss, which is like, the next step, the next step.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): ambition used to me previously was like, that's… that's the ladder, that's what you want. And at the same time as Dan saying that, and talking about, you can't just leave, there's part of me that's like, do I want that person's life?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): No.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): they're divorced, they never see their kids, they've been to rehab, like, all because of this job, well, and their own choices, but it's like, actually, is that… can I be ambitious? And then when I had my leaving

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): party for when I decided to leave, because what actually happened next is it got worse, because I then left this career, a 15-year career and an identity as a journalist for

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the world's biggest newspaper, the world's biggest website, whatever it was. So, I was voluntarily leaving that, so the people around me, and anyone will know this if they've left

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): a corporation, maybe, or any kind of team, where every… everyone treats you as though you're mad, because that has to… you have to be, because otherwise, what are they still doing there, right? So it's… people come and say goodbye, and there's a leaving party, and one of the senior editors said to me, it's just a shame you're not more ambitious.

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Josephine McGrail: Whoa!

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And I… and at the time.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): that landed… I can even feel sick, I just feel sick even thinking about it now, even though I've reframed it to death, and I know I am ambitious, but I'm ambitious for very different things now. But at the time, when I'm like, what am I doing?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): what's next? I've not got no… I haven't got any clue. So for someone that you kind of respect and admire to hit you exactly where it hurts, not on purpose, just on… that's what he actually thought, so I just thought I'd share that story, because

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): me then felt crushed about the idea that somebody wouldn't think I was ambitious, and obviously I wasn't, because look what I was doing. Me now, it's like, yes, I am ambitious, but for a different life. So, I just thought I'd share that.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, thank you so much. I mean, I'm so sorry you had that experience, but… and also bless him, because like you said, I'm sure he didn't mean to, you know… he used the words that he knew how to use, right? But but wow, ouch! And especially that thing of, like, you're there, and you're going, and again.

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Josephine McGrail: you are allowed to change your life around anytime, any place, even if it was once your greatest dream. That doesn't mean not being ambitious, it means being ambitious for the new you that is being born, right? So it's that thing of, like you said, like, looking around and going, well, you know, who can I reflect myself, who can I see myself in, and do I want that life for myself? And actually, for me, ambitions, and I mean, obviously it's the same for you, would be, actually.

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Josephine McGrail: I would kind of like to be healthy, and I would like to be happy, and I would love to create an everyday that I don't have to escape.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, sure, and I'd love to see my friends, and I'd love to, like, try some different things, and not be scared every day I go into work.

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Josephine McGrail: Right, 100%.

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Josephine McGrail: A deep share, wow. So then what happens? This must have been around the time when you and I met then, so did you…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Had you just left when you came to, like, when you and I bumped into each other in my classes on yoga and all of that, something around that?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, so I'm just looking at the… I did a little timeline, so I think…

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Josephine McGrail: I love that.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): So… so… so then… so I go from, like, being in a newsroom and being super busy all the time, and like I mentioned earlier, like, I'm used to being surrounded by people, always, like, my whole life, like, friends, family.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): work. I've never spent any time by myself. I had never spent any time by myself. And then suddenly, like, we were talking about, it's so… it's… it's… you're allowed to change… you can… you're allowed to make a change, but I think we don't always know

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): what the change is going to look like. So… so being unsure, like, for me, I… I did get pushed. It was like, I cannot stay here, or I cannot stay in this version of me. So it was partly to do with the job, partly to do with going out drinking, partly to do with not looking after myself, all of these things.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): were… it was like the perfect storm of something needs to change, so…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I mean, that's desperation, isn't it? And it's not really something I'm proud of, and what I try and do with all the work I do is help people not get to that point of something needs to change, but for me.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): who had never read another self… a self-help book in my life, I got to this point where I was now sitting in my… in my… in our spare bedroom, by myself, writing.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): trying to be a freelancer, pitching ideas, but my identity, my self-worth has always been pretty low, and that's probably why I chose a job where I needed validation from things like that, probably why I used to drink so much,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): But I was suddenly there's just… and it was just me. I didn't have a big-name title behind me. I talk about the first few networking events I went to, and you just have your name tag, and it's like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): freelance, or… and the way that people look through you. And, you know, I know now, it's like, those are the kind of… are not the kind of people I want to hang out with, but again, when you're unsure of what's happening next, when

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Before you had such a solid identity as this person. So then I think my identity became the going-out person and the party girl, so it's like, yeah, fine, I haven't got a job, but guess what? That's just more time to go out and be fun, and be wild.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): this does not end well, I'm sure you know that. So yeah, so one day I'm kind of wandering around Chiswick, where I lived, and I go into the Oxfam bookshop, just because I'm literally just losing my mind of just sitting there by myself, and, this book

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): fell… fell in front of me. It literally did, and people sometimes don't believe that, but I'm going to show you a copy here.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And it's called… oh, that's the post-it telling you what number it is, Change Your Life in Seven Days by Paul McKenna. And it's not the most profound of self-help books, but this book

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): 10 years later has definitely changed my life, but that was the book that I started reading, and so just as we were meeting, I think I'd started reading this book, and it blew my mind.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And it took me a year to read a book about changing your life in seven days, and I'm still acting on the stuff I learned in it, but I think it's because, like, you, as you touched on earlier.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the right book at the right time, the right… the right question at the right time. A lot of my work actually is about the right question at the right time, because what…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): what I always bring it back to is the first question in that book is one I couldn't answer, and that's why it had such an impact on me. And the question is, if you wake up tomorrow in your dream life, what does it look like? And it's supposed to be a nice question, it's like a juicy question, you'd love it, it's like, now I love it, it's like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): what could you imagine? What… who are you with? What can you smell? You know, all this stuff. What are you wearing? Lovely visualization, dream setting, goal planning,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): things, and I'd never… I didn't have an answer. I just didn't know that people thought about things like that. I just spent so long reacting, and then surviving, I think, that, the idea of

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I don't know, being able to… picture anything.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): as we touched on earlier, different than what was my day-to-day, getting through the day. And so the fact I didn't have an answer was actually the catalyst for then, well, I better start learning, and I better work this out, and

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the Change Your Life in Seven Days format that Paul McKenna shares is, every day you're… you're doing a different exercise, and so it… and it introduced me to these concepts, which now have become such a big part of my life, and what I read and what I teach, and it's… and it's things that would be

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): For people who are listening, they probably know this stuff, but at the time, the idea that you are not your thoughts, for instance.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): that you don't have to act on everything you think, to me, was just, like… I just… and every single thing that I learned like that, or, you know, the inner critic, whose voice is that? Well, oh no, it's not my voice. Well, whose is it? Where's it come from? All these…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): they are big concepts, but really, they're just things that I'd never thought about before, and I wondered why I hadn't thought about them before. And then as I was reading and learning more, and then starting to go into yoga and meet people like you,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I got marched to therapy by my husband, so that had happened as well, which is also not the way to go to therapy, as people know, I'm sure, but it happened.

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Josephine McGrail: Listen, you know what? All roots leads to Rome, right? So, potato, potato, sending all the love to Dan the Man. That's… I love that. Bless you!

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, so all this was happening, and then I started reading more and more books, and then I just thought, hang on, why doesn't… does everyone know this?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And not everyone does know this, more people than I realize do, but why don't we know all this stuff? And then I wanted to… I needed to start talking about it to people. And Dan and my friends at the time were like, we love that this is helping you!

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): that's great for you, but when you stop talking to us about Paul McKenna and feel the fear and do it anyway, like, they weren't really that interested. They've since changed their tune a little bit, but at the time, it was very much like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): this is, like, 10 years ago, yeah, this is, like, 9, 10 years ago, and I was getting super nerdy and into this stuff, for which I make no apologies. I mean, it's literally changed my life, and it's… and I now love to share, you know, advice based on all this stuff with all my friends and Dan, but, yeah, I think…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the club, the Shelf Help Club, became… I think you said earlier about

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I wanted something to change, but I don't think I did want it, I just needed it, right? So, I needed to leave that job, I needed to find

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): other people that were into this stuff and could support me. I didn't know at the time. I needed to find other people who were not the kind of people that I'd been going to work and sitting next to every day. And, you know, they talk about… if you talk about that you are the five people you spend the most time with.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Like, part of my life, this could not be more different now. And, yeah, that's the… that's the story of how Shelf Help came about, and then since we've gone on to read a lot of books together in the community, and I've read a lot more by myself.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely love it, Tony, and I think there's also this thing that, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: like, life happens through contrast, right? Through contrast, we get to know… we get a little bit closer to…

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Josephine McGrail: who we are and what we want. Like, but it's always… it happens through contrast. Like, it also happens through alignment and through, oh, I want more of this. But very often in life, we need to understand what we don't want in order to get a little bit closer to what we do want. And then again, what used to be your want, i.e, you know, you want to write, you're now a writer, which is amazing, and you've been writing for many years.

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Josephine McGrail: but, like, you know, part of you used to dream, oh, maybe the sun, or maybe the Daily Mail, and then you got there, right? And you're like… and then through that experience, you realize, actually, this is no longer fulfilling that dream, right? So then you realize that, and then you were like, well, I don't really know where I want to go, but I know it's not here!

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Josephine McGrail: I think this is just… this is life for everyone, and this is, again, the things that we don't talk about in life. Like, in order to know where you want to go.

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Josephine McGrail: next, like, I'm talking about the next hour, tomorrow, potentially next month, maybe next year, but we'll have to know where we don't want to go.

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Josephine McGrail: Because…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: You know, the question where you said, you know, you were like, oh, we do this visualization of, like, your favorite day in your life, or, you know, if you wake up tomorrow and anything is possible, what would you do? Right? And you're like, this question gives me anxiety, right?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Well, even through that experience, you realize that you want to know! You wanna be the person that goes.

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Josephine McGrail: Not because it looks a certain way, but because it feels good to know yourself, this version of you, on such a deep level, right? And this is a question that, honestly, Tony, like.

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Josephine McGrail: almost no one asks themselves. Like, we ask ourselves, again, when we're going through big, pivotal, transformational, let's call it really shitty and crazy, overwhelming moments in life. Then we ask ourselves, oh, who am I?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah?

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Josephine McGrail: Most, you know, and also, it's not how we are taught, right? By society, we're taught to look outside of ourselves. Look into the eyes of your partner, this is who you are, or look at the school you're at, this is who you are, or the job you get offered, or do you have the money in your bank? Like, this is who you are. You know, there's a nice quote by Carl Jung, and he says something along the lines of.

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Josephine McGrail: The world will ask you who you are.

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Josephine McGrail: And if you do not know, it will tell you.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yep.

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Josephine McGrail: It's brutal.

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Josephine McGrail: But so true, so I think this point where you're like, oh my god, I realized I couldn't answer that question that he posed Paul McKenna in the first book, right? Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: it is literally the most essential, but also the most difficult question to answer. It's a lifetime journey, if not many lifetimes.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, sure. And I think… and sometimes we don't… maybe don't want to dig… we don't want to go there, because that…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): So that is as well… there's a reason that you might not be able to picture

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): a positive future, and why is that? And so, it's not just because you don't know how.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): often. Well, it… I would…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): yeah, assume it's not because you don't know how, because you can learn… we can learn techniques, right? We can learn strategies, you can read… you can read all the books, but ultimately, it's about what these books will ask of you, and what this work asks of you, is to… to go back and work out

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): why you're in this… why you've got to this position. Though, like, as I said earlier, the idea of you don't need to be… hopefully, you don't need to be in a desperate state, or making yourself ill, or burnt out, to

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): learn these techniques, and so what I teach now, and what you do as well, I think, is like, it's that management, isn't it? Like, maintenance, rather than get to a point of crash and burn, and then, like, SOS, just, I just need anything. So.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): obviously, people will come to self-development and personal development at that moment, but I think, if we can help people along the way, not to… not to get quite that far down the… down the, dark night of the soul, maybe.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%, Tony, and I think this is an amazing point to share with us. Tell us about your book, so I'm sure your book is… you know, as again, because it's a…

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Josephine McGrail: you know, I always say, like, we've rehearsed our entire lifetime for the person we are now. Like, so this book is not only your 10 years of reading a thousand books, or whatever it is, it's, I mean, this is your whole life.

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Josephine McGrail: Everything that you've experienced, all the good stuff, all the bad stuff, like, all of that, and then the 1,000 books, and then everything else.

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Josephine McGrail: That came from that.

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Josephine McGrail: But share with us, so the book, as much as or as little as you want to share, as always, but also, I just want to share… I really love how you've got this whole past self, future self, present self, because… sorry, I will stop talking, because I really want to hear from your, you know, in your words, about your book, but I personally, when you send it across to me, Tony.

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Josephine McGrail: I love the fact that you have this three-step self-development method, because, you know, we're always in relationship with future self and with past version of self. Like, so we may as well open up that conversation, instead of pretending it's not gonna happen, you know? Because I… and again, in the whole, sort of,

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Josephine McGrail: mindfulness community, develop self-development, self-help community, like, it's, you know, we always just go, oh, just be really present, you know, forget about future you or past you. Well, that's just not possible, so can we, instead of forgetting about them…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Invite them to the table! So talk us through it! What is your new book, your beautiful book, about?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): yeah, invite them to the table and see what they want, or what they need, right? So, I think,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): trying to distill what I've learned into, a book has been…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And it's quite a small book as well, it's a pocket-sized guide to self-help. So, because one of my big…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): values with…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): self-development generally and with self-help is making it accessible and easy and non-scary and entry-level. So, I feel like this is very much what I'm here to do. So, Red.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): a shit ton of books, sorry for swearing, worked with thousands of different readers, and interviewed hundreds of experts now, including Paul McKenna, twice, and I'm interviewing him one more time this week, so that… that is, like, still blows my mind, and makes me very happy. But, distilling all of that into

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): what people need is really difficult, because we all need different things, but what I have realized over the years is that there are very much patterns, and there are

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): There are key…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): areas to focus on. So I love the method I created, I'm calling the Connected Self Method, and the idea of

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): connecting with those versions of yourselves, past, present, and future. So, a bit like Charles Dickens' Christmas Carol, so if you think about the three… three ghosts, what would… it doesn't have to be Christmas, but, like, if you did go into your past and looked back, you would see

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): some of what has shaped you, if you do go into your future. And, I share 3 big questions in the book, which I'll talk about in a minute, but the, the original title of the book was going to be, Who Are You Becoming? Because for me.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): that's what I care about more than anything, is the idea… is sharing the idea that you can change that, right? So, if nothing changes, nothing changes, where would you be in a year's time, in five years' time? Where would I be if I hadn't have left the Daily Mail, if I hadn't have…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): fix things with my friends and my husband, and all that stuff, and kind of looking forward is so valuable, because then you have… that's data, right? That's information, and then you have the power to make changes, which you do in your present, which you're doing in your… with your present self, which you can

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And there's lots of different… I think most of the… most of the books we read and most of the tools we talk about in Shelf Help are probably about in the present, because they're things that we can do now, so whether that's habits, routines, rituals, how we run our mornings, which I know you love, or how we run our days. So, yeah, so the idea of three stages of self-discovery, which is what we've just gone through, then life design, looking forward.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And then life support. So what do you… what do you need right now? So, the three questions that I ask in the book… well, I ask the first question from Paul McKenna, and I wonder if people can answer it.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And as you said, probably lots of people would not be able to answer that question, or would need a bit of time. And then going through, so for self-discovery is what has shaped you, is the question. For life design, it is who are you becoming? And then for life support is, what do you need right now? So what do you need to get you there? And I think that

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the questions are almost as important as the books. Like I said, like I've touched on earlier, we can… we can read all the books, and we can get all the information, and I am very much in my head as a writer, as a journalist, as someone who reads and consumes, and now more than ever, just consuming, consuming, and I wish that reading a book would

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): could change everything, but maybe I don't, because it doesn't, is the, is the, plot spoiler there. But it's, like, reading the book can be the start, and then asking yourselves these questions and digging into, what the book has brought up for you is…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): is the next stage, I suppose. So, what my book is, is taking people through these three… through these three steps, using insights from different people that I've interviewed, or different books I've loved. So, in the first section, we… I start with self-compassion, and I start because I just feel like

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): If you're… before you do anything in life.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): you need self-compassion, and a lot of people that I work with, and me as well at the time, when I first started on this self-development journey, I didn't love myself, I didn't even like myself, so the idea of telling people to do that, I've…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I've come to learn is quite difficult, but self-compassion is something that we can start doing, whether we like ourselves or not. So, the book starts there, and then we go into different

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): tools and techniques and advice from my favorite authors, but I also share stories

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): four of my own, and so each of the… each of the steps starts with a personal story. And I find this has been so hard for me, Josie, because I'm used to interviewing people, and it's… and it's easy…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): well, I find it easy to say, Paul McKenna says you should do this, let's talk about it, because that's Paul McKenna saying it, right? And he's an expert, and he knows, for Tony to share a story about

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): When she was a kid, or when she worked here, or…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): about her drinking, or whatever it is. It's like, that's my story, and here's my advice on how I fix it, and what I think you should do. And I think that whole visibility bit, and…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): that's take… that is what's taken 10 years, literally, of me needing to read self-help, needing to find other people that read self-help, realizing the impact that reading and community has, because it's huge, so…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the book club.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): took off by itself, so pre-lockdown, it was… there was book clubs popping up all over the world, and that's nothing to do… that wasn't anything to do with me, and like I said, strategy. It's because these challenges and issues and topics are universal, and

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): when I started seeing the impact that it was hap… it was having, and bringing people together in a room to talk about these things, and we… and you helped me do that at various

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): events and occasions, so we kind of have the body stuff, and then we'd have the mind stuff, and then… but the people coming together, and you know this, and your clients will know this, being in… being in community with others, there's just something magic about it. So…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Being able to read this stuff and not feel alone is huge.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): huge for me, and I was seeing it impacting other people, so then I…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): then I just felt this responsibility, I suppose. It's like, I need to make this something. Like, and also it was happening. Whether I wanted it to or not, people were finding shelf help.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Not advertising. I'm not, like, I'm not… I'm not an Instagram… I wasn't an Instagram superstar, but people were finding shelf help and saying, I want to share this with my friends. So, my challenge since has been

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): leveling up myself as a way to level up this community and biz… and now business. So…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): all of the other stuff that came before was challenging, but this has been the toughest, I think. So, getting to that point of… and the book kind of

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): looks at that as a way of… yeah, so it's… the book is really kind of my journey, and as a way to guide people through these three steps. So, being more visible.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): showing how I have done things has… is…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): is a huge challenge for me, but I also feel like it's very telling of The work works, right?

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Josephine McGrail: 100%, and there's also the thing is, like, Tony, like, I don't think we're on this, you know, going back to who are you, who are we, and also why are we? Like, why are we here? Like, you know, the most philosophical, but also, for me, the most important question you can ever ask yourself, and how can you not ask yourself that? And so the point is.

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Josephine McGrail: personally, I don't believe we come to this planet to be perfect human beings. You know, perfect meaning, oh, I have it all worked out, and actually, I don't feel like an imposter at all, and I don't ever have self-doubt. I mean, I am full of self-doubt, full of all of that.

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Josephine McGrail: But if I wanted enough, I'd do it anyway.

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Josephine McGrail: It feels like, and not just wanted in terms of, like, oh, that's gonna be cool, but in terms of if I really feel like…

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Josephine McGrail: Actually, it's always been like that. Like, for me, the… sorry, personal story, it's just this thing for me, like…

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Josephine McGrail: the way that I personally get moved through this is I always… for me, it's like, what I do is, like, there's a much bigger reason for it. It's not… it's not about me, it's about we. Exactly the same thing as you. It's like, oh, I have to level up, even if it's uncomfortable, because I do this for my community, and then I do, you know, that has a rippling effect, right? So…

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Josephine McGrail: The fact that you share about this so openly here is, like.

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Josephine McGrail: that's the most empowering thing about our whole interview today, is, like, you sharing, going, oh my god! You know, in various places and spaces in my life, have I had this feeling, and, you know, literally feeling like the image I had was, like, you know, when you're, you know, when you're… like, that thing of walking out on your old identity, and not only the grief that it brings, but the confusion.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Hmm.

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Josephine McGrail: feeling of almost just walking, you know, when it's really foggy, and you can't see where you're walking, but you keep having to, like, continue walking, hoping that you're gonna somehow get out on the other side, right? That is the most human experience that no one talks about. And whether listeners out there, whether you are in a space of, you know, pivoting, transformation, going through that, whether it's a dark night of the soul, or it's just really foggy, whether you chose to go through it voluntarily.

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Josephine McGrail: although you were pushed, because, like you said, Tony, you were like, well, there was no way I could continue being there, that, you know, you were getting sick, etc. But whatever it is, it's that thing of, that is the most human state to be in, in the vast unknown, you know?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Hmm.

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Josephine McGrail: and we don't… it's so taboo, it's so entangled with guilt and shame, and if I share this part of myself, will people still like me? And, you know, sense of, like, shift of identity happens to all of us.

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Josephine McGrail: It happens when we lose people we love, it happens then again, yeah, when, you know, we choose to walk out on our career, or we change career, whatever it is, but it's still a shift of identity where we are no longer who we used to be, and we don't really know who we want to be going forward, we just know where we don't want to be.

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Josephine McGrail: And there's grief, and there's so much in there, so… Anyway, I could talk about this all day. What I wanted to ask you…

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Josephine McGrail: Because this, I just love so much, and I know I said it before.

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Josephine McGrail: what made you decide to have these three steps? This, this, this, you know, the fact that we are always in conversation with future and past, and of course, present self. What was, you know, because I'm sure when you were thinking about this book, and again, books is always…

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Josephine McGrail: a lifetime in the making, or even if you didn't consciously think, oh, I'm gonna write this book, but do you remember when it started to solidify for you? I wanted to have these three, you know, past, present, and future together? Does that make sense?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, sure, yeah. Well, I think because it's 10 years.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I realized it was 10 years at the beginning of the year. I think, you know, you're going through some pictures, and I'm like, God, I've been… there's a picture of me on a hammock in Thailand, looking like death, reading Paul McKenna 10 years ago. Like, I was, like, the skinniest I'd ever been, but I just did not look well, because this was, like, the height of the car crash. And I think…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And then I've started thinking, what… so it's 10 years I've been reading this stuff.

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Josephine McGrail: clinging.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): you know, show… thinking, yeah, great, but, like, what have I actually learned? And then… and when I tell people what I do.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I've definitely felt a shift that recently I've moved from

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): like, almost being apologetic about it, or like, oh, you wouldn't get it, to, like, I really feel now, like, I talked about that visibility point, like, I really feel that I have… I've learned some stuff, and I've worked with so many people now that I kind of can see what works, I can see in my community on our, like, weekly Zooms, I can see… I have coaching clients now, I can see when I interview authors that we're, like, we're at a level talking about things, and I just…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I started thinking about…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): how do I make sense of this? And I think there's a real paradox of self-development, isn't there? Where it's, like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Be grateful for what you have, accept where you are. That's, like, that's a key lesson. But also, want more for yourself, have enough self-worth that you believe you deserve great things. And they kind of feel like… lots of people might think that they're in competition, or they're kind of

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): they contradict each other, but I feel like both of those things are really important, and the idea of

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Connecting with those three parts of ourselves is, like, give your past self

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): compassion, give your future self permission, and the way to do that is looking at what you're doing right now. So I think… and I just wanted… and I think three steps is just simple, and I want people to know that

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): it's… maybe it's not easy, but it's simple. This stuff is simple, and a lot of it is…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Unlearning, and a lot of it is…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Things that you would be able to tell a friend, or things that you would try and teach your kids, so it's…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Teaching ourself that, isn't it? And trying to take that on board, and knowing it's…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Simple, but not easy. So, this kind of work does ask

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Ask of you, but the other side of it is…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Probably a life that you would love a lot more.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, I love that so much, and I also think, you know, like, I mean, the most profound shift changes healing.

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Josephine McGrail: a symbol.

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Josephine McGrail: Like, it's not complicated. Truth is simple.

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Josephine McGrail: You know, love, of course, you know, the experience of love can feel complicated, but at the end of the day, like, in the end of the day, we choose to save someone because we love them. And if we choose to leave, then the love has shifted and changed, and that's also okay, but usually things… like, the most profound things are actually simple. I think we just overcomplicate it in our mind, right? We're like, oh, you know, I got myself into such a complicated situation, so the answer has to be complicated!

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Josephine McGrail: ego math. And then actually, usually, like, it's those moments where, like, you know, again, where your husband was like.

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Josephine McGrail: You know you can leave.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Hmm.

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Josephine McGrail: simple. Like, not easy to do.

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Josephine McGrail: and you had to be in the right headspace, and you also had to have had enough shitty experiences to finally go, actually, I want something else, you know? But it's that thing of, like, it's always that thing. I remember, you know, like, so many times in my own life, you know, when I found something and I was struggling and struggling, and I felt like I was, like, trying to push against the current, you know? And then, you know, like, I remember asking myself, I was like, why am I doing this? And I was like, oh, but I can'

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Josephine McGrail: I can't do it, and I'll just, you know, I'll try harder, and then all of a sudden, I came to this really, like, the profound moment was so simple, and the simple moment was just going, I could do it, I can do it, I am doing it.

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Josephine McGrail: I don't want to do it.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Mmm. That's huge, though!

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, you got goosebumps, right? Like…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: It's exactly that same thing for you, right? You could do it, you have proven to yourself and the world, or whatever, for several years, yes, I can do it, but you personally have to reach that point within yourself where you go, I don't want to do it.

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Josephine McGrail: And really… and even if you don't know what it is I wanna do, or who it is I wanna be, I… at least I know that I don't want that for myself, and…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Hmm?

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Josephine McGrail: Even regardless of what other people may think, or the prestige that may come with it, or whatever, like, when that's no longer exciting.

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Josephine McGrail: when the only thing that excites you is to go, I just actually want to feel good, and I don't even know what makes me feel good, but, like, I just want to be able to close my eyes and like what I feel.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, and it's… and the only way to do that is to get to know yourself, isn't it? That's why the book… that's why the book is called You, like, A Beginner's Guide, because it is, but very much like…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): It all comes down to that, and it's not… from a selfish point of view, it's very much, what do you know about yourself? What do you understand about yourself? What do you wish was different, or what isn't serving you? And fine, that's data, that's information, and let's use that.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%, and Tony, I, just because I… I really want to showcase you, highlight you as best that I can. So, to my community, anyone who's listening out there, or watching the YouTube later, Tony, what are some questions people could start asking themselves? So, you know, if people are brand new to this kind of thing, and they're like, oh, I've watched this interview, Tony sounds amazing, you know, they can see yourself, they can see

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Josephine McGrail: themselves in your journey, and they're like, I want to get the book, but right now, I know it's not out just yet, it will come out soon. What are some questions people, like, what is a question someone could start with? Does that make sense? Like, just, yeah.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, well, let's… let's… let's do… well, let's do who are you becoming? Because I… I feel like that's a huge question, but it's also… it's easy ways to think about it, right? So, and you'll love this. I got… I got the inspiration for this from Peloton.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): From one of those, you know, one of those super peppy, motivational riders, and she's like, you got up for this, you're here, who are you becoming? And I was like, I'm becoming someone that goes on Peloton. On a… when I don't even want to. I'm becoming someone that quotes

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Like, motivational things, but the idea of, like, who are you becoming

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And it… and this… and this is one of those, like, mindset shifts. You know when you have those things where someone might say, no one cares about me? Or you could say, no one cares. And it's like, there's two different ways of looking at something, right? So, who are you becoming can be… it might…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): the answer to that question might not feel super positive if you're in a place like I was, but there's so much possibility in that, right? And so that's why I love this question, because the idea is

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): who are you becoming can change, as you said, very… it can change in an instant if you decide it. Whereas, what has shaped you has been, and…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): it's important, not information, but who are you becoming? It's like, it gives you back the power, and it gives you back the… the agency that I think when we are… when we're struggling, we… we feel like we don't have that. So…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): There's something I talk about a little bit in the book, which is that idea of, it wasn't your fault, but it is your responsibility. So, whatever's happened to you has happened to you. There's different ways to…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): acknowledge that, heal from that, have compassion for that, but what do you want to do next? And so, yeah, who are you becoming, people? And then.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Maybe. The next question for that is,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): And does that make you happy? Like, because… Maybe you're becoming a parent, maybe you're becoming…

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Maybe you have gotten this new job, maybe you're becoming someone who renovates houses, and you're on your way. Great. It's good to… we don't always need to be miserable to read self-help. This is all, like I said earlier, like, maintenance, management, and I love the idea that, this kind of stuff can support us, right? It can support who we're becoming.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): That's what, like, these books are a tool.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%, but also for growth. So, like.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Not even just to maintain where we are, but to grow. It can be a springboard, right? I think, and this is exactly it, it's the same thing with, you know, any kind of wellness industry, or, you know, also, you know, obviously, like, I'm an energy healer, and I'm always like, you don't have to come and see me when you are literally, like, one step away from death.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: See, you know, like, because it's that thing, we, again, especially, like, living in a really fast-paced city, it's like, health, you know, I always say, like, our greatest

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Josephine McGrail: our greatest wealth is our radiant health, and of course, that's health of, like, emotions as well as mind, as well as body, like, because without those things, we really have nothing. Like, you can't enjoy anything if those things aren't there for you, right? And so, exactly like you said.

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Josephine McGrail: It's there not only, you know, like, shelf help and self-help, and your new book is there for all of us, and, you know, yes, when you're going through the darkest night, but also when you just want to, you know, maintain, but also when you want to expand.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah. You know, because it… you know when you reach that point where you're like, okay, well, actually, again, I'm good, but maybe…

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Josephine McGrail: you're noticing, you feel like you're not growing, you know, so there's a sense of dissatisfaction, which doesn't mean you are, like, greedy or not grateful for what's happening in your life, all the good stuff that's already there. It just means that you're ready for the next… the next chapter, the new experience, right? So that's definitely, that's definitely a reason as well for people to engage with you. Tony, where can people find you? How can people…

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Josephine McGrail: Find your amazing book, and how can they connect with you?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Well, the book is printed by The Pound Project, so, it will be available on the Pound Project website for 3 weeks. It's limited edition. And then my website is shelfhelp.club, so, all the information on joining our community, there'll soon be a great little quiz there, which is, based on my framework for, looking at your, kind of, overall well-being, so you can look at exactly

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): exactly what you talked about, Josie, like, which areas to focus on next. So, because there's always something we could be,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): looking at, right? And, yeah, so shelfhelp.club is the website, and I host my community on Substack, so, but if you head to the website, then you can get everything on there.

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Josephine McGrail: Amazing, I absolutely love it. Tony, I'm just realizing I've absolutely taken too much of your time. I said an hour, and here we are, 10 plus 4. I could talk to you all day. Is there anything else that you would like listeners out there to hear? You've already given us so much incredible food for thought, some, you know, your incredible life story,

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Josephine McGrail: there is a question I always ask people, and, you know, I feel like you've already answered it, but just in case, and with all your… I feel, you know what? I have to ask you, because with your 1,000 books of reading, and your whole lifetime, you know, of being an amazing human being, always curious, always, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: trying to see the next thing and ponder and wonder. I really would love to hear your words about this, so…

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Josephine McGrail: With everything you've been through in your life, Tony, with all of the opportunities you said yes to, and the opportunities you either walked away from yourself, or did was somehow shifted, and wherever life took you, the people you met, the people you departed with, like, all of that, with all the wisdom that you sit in today.

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Josephine McGrail: If you had just one or two soul messages for humanity, what would it do?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): That's a big question.

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Josephine McGrail: But remember… We only get what we're ready for.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Hmm.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): I'm gonna give you… I'm gonna use a quote that I use in the book, actually. It's very short, and it is, pain pushes until vision pulls, and it's by Dr. Michael Bernard Beckwith, and the idea that quite often we… that… that short quote, to me, encapsulates the idea that

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): We spend most of our life fighting against.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Internal stories and beliefs and,

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Running on programs that aren't really ours, and the only way to

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Stop doing that, is to create a vision for your life.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): That will pull you.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Because it's hard. So, it took me a while to get there, but I do have a vision now for, for what I want my life to look like. Not exactly, but it's more what I want to feel like, right? So, I have a vision for how I want to feel, I have a vision for what I want to share, who I want to impact, and so now.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): very much, I am able to be pulled by that, versus just pushing and fighting and using all my energy to fight the pain of

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): What has been before.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): So hopefully that's helpful.

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Josephine McGrail: I absolutely love that. It's that thing of, like, are we spending our whole life running away from something? Or towards something?

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): You said it a lot… a lot more succinctly than me, yes.

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Josephine McGrail: Your quote! Your quote was perfect! And it goes back to that whole thing of the Paul McKinney, you know, like, if you woke up on that perfect day, what would it look like? Like, you know, let's, you know, when we can create a life where we actually start to, sort of.

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Josephine McGrail: allow ourselves to daydream, and not be anxious about not knowing our perfect daydream, but to go, oh, okay, and it can be really small, right? It can be that thing of, like.

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Josephine McGrail: All I know is that today I like orange flowers, so I will enjoy my orange flowers, like, not make it something it doesn't have to be. Like, start being small, right? Like, at least that's my own thing. Start super small, like, if there's just one thing that's pulling you forward… So, for instance, I really love you, Tony, you know, I love your energy, and so for me, it was like, of course I want to spend time with Tony!

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Josephine McGrail: That might be a small thing.

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Josephine McGrail: But that has a rippling effect on everything in my life that day, because that means there's one thing that's already going, this is gonna be nice.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Hmm.

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Josephine McGrail: You know? Like, start with the little things.

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Josephine McGrail: Like, what are you running towards? Just the small things. I want orange flowers, I want to speak to Tony. Make life easy.

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Mmm, yeah, love it.

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Josephine McGrail: Anyway, Tony, my love, it's been such a joy. I'll put all of the amazing links and everything else in the sh- in the… not the snow, but the show notes, and please stay on the line for a few seconds just to say goodbye, and listeners out there, thank you so much, we hope you have an amazing afternoon, and we hope that today was inspirational. Thank you so much!

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Toni (Shelf Help Club): Thank you so much for having me.