If you want a better way to understand how you're generating leads and converting sales – so you can do more of both – this is the episode for you. We're going deep into full funnel metrics, from initial lead capture all the way through the sales conversion through ads, control variables, audience understanding, and the art of interpreting data.
Quick overview of what we cover:
CHECK OUT STEVE + ADRIANE'S JOINT PROJECT:
LISTEN TO MORE EPISODES WITH STEVE:
RESOURCES:
CONNECT WITH STEVE:
If you want a better way to understand how you're generating leads and converting sales – so you can do more of both – this is the episode for you. We're going deep into full funnel metrics, from initial lead capture all the way through the sales conversion through ads, control variables, audience understanding, and the art of interpreting data.
Quick overview of what we cover:
CHECK OUT STEVE + ADRIANE'S JOINT PROJECT:
LISTEN TO MORE EPISODES WITH STEVE:
RESOURCES:
CONNECT WITH STEVE:
Oh, hang on a sec, is my message. At the front of this whole thing, I go all the way back over here. Do I need to adjust that? Then, with that knowledge, you tweak that and then all of a sudden you run the numbers again and the test again. It's like I haven't had that comment where it's like I'm misaligned with DIY or done for you.
Speaker 2:That's weird.
Speaker 1:No, that's data working. That's like the magic qualitative outcome of quantitative activity. Quite that Sound, bite that shit Ooh.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Soulpreneur show, a podcast for a new generation of leaders, visionaries, disruptors and trailblazers who want to do business better. Our goal is to provide you with stories and insights into the strategy, systems and soul behind scaling, service-driven, impact-first, human-centric businesses to help you create time, financial and lifestyle freedom. We want you to have a business that you not only love and pays you well, but that prioritizes what you want for your life, so that you can take actual unplugged vacations, you can step away from social media and you can spend your time doing things you love with the people you love. Let's get to it. Okay, we are back here, for we were just debating. Is this date four? Is it five? Oh, you have an answer.
Speaker 1:It doesn't count, because what's happened is I think there's been some there's been like, we've had these dates where it's like come to the first podcast episode, we'll throw a bone out, we'll help you out, you poor little Aussie down on your island. Then the second one, then the third one started to get a bit of traction and then I think you just want to be the star of the show. So you've just called me in as like a familiar face to ask you some questions on this episode, which is amazing because any chance we get, any chance we get to unpack the brain of the Adrian, that is a glorious, monumental day. So it is an honor and a privilege to be here to try and ask you good enough questions to elicit and tap into that expertise.
Speaker 2:I think you actually want to be the star of the show. Thanks, steve. Yes, I really. I had the plan all along to bring you on to. Yeah, like I'll interview you, I'll let you think this is about you so that you can actually. Can we just make this all about me, please, and thank you.
Speaker 1:Have you ever been in those situations where, no, you probably haven't, because you're a successful, you're a successful business owner. So when you're not, when you're like washed up, loser Olympic sort of style business, like some of the stuff that I've played in you go and hang out at these networking groups and not all networking groups are bad, but they're a cesspool of like just weird stuff so you'll connect with someone. I'll be like, oh, it sounds really cool what you're doing. Steve, I'd love to book a one-to-one with you and learn more about what you do. Oh, cool, you're interested in what I do. That's fantastic.
Speaker 1:You attend this one-to-one and then 45 minutes in, you realize that they're just about to pitch you. They're their service, they don't give a shit about you at all. That could sort of be what this is like. This is like oh, we'll give you, but you will give you like four episodes, like four episodes of podcasts, and then the truth comes out. I just want you to interview me. Jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes.
Speaker 2:I'm loving it, I'm just not making a reaction. So at the end, I think you're milking this, because I am having a big reaction to this.
Speaker 1:I know, I know.
Speaker 2:I think you're someone who enjoy, like the bigger the reaction you get, the more it just eggs you on. You really should do improv Really. If people start, if you're like, oh, I'm gonna try to make this funny, and then people start laughing, would you not just like really milk it?
Speaker 1:No, I'd just be, I'd just continue on whatever I'm doing.
Speaker 2:No, I think you would milk it. Yeah, you would act, you would be chill and you would look like you were just continuing on with what you're doing. I think you would.
Speaker 1:Duck on the pond style like yeah, just appear chill, but on the, on, the, on the.
Speaker 2:I think you would just realize that and be like all right, I got this.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, speaking of, speaking of got this, I got this.
Speaker 2:So you got this, so we're gonna build up to what am I pitching you at the end?
Speaker 1:Ooh, I'd love you to pitch me like because, given the fact that we've been talking about the charlatans and the, the, the, the scoundrels of the bro world? We're not. Hey, we're reformed. We're actually here as the we're having Pulp Fiction discussions prior is like which one are we? Are we the shepherd? Are we the tyranny of evil men? Are we the weak? Like which? Which? Which ones are we? I think we're the shepherds. Now I think we've gone from, or do you just?
Speaker 2:want to milk chicken and hamburger.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is a tasty burger. That is a tasty burger, Anyway that's all cool to say.
Speaker 1:So, yes, we will get to the point, I think, at the end, where the circle of amazingness which is our little Venn diagram is going to be complete, because last time I was here so much fun I got to actually nerd out hard on the inside the tent metrics and how you can, like, make your you know, if your program's engaging them some really cool tips and tricks. Now we're gonna front load this bad boy and we're gonna find out what makes good people coming in, and I would call that Bums on Seats. You would call it, call it something much more fancy and cool. What would you call it?
Speaker 2:Well, what I call, I don't know, engagement, I don't know, that's really not fancy. I think, yours is cooler than mine.
Speaker 1:Well, I keep the Bums on Seats once the Bums have been acquired. So, the acquisition of the Bums to go on the seats, the seat being your program, your curriculum, this is the acquisition and the collection of these butts.
Speaker 2:Can we please market this, as we're gonna teach you how to acquire the Bums. It's good.
Speaker 1:It is good. It is good, tell us everything.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. Well, that is. That's way too vague of a place to start.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna start, greg, and I'm gonna like, I'm gonna start up at the top of the funnel because that's what we're gonna be talking about funnels and I'm just gonna get all the way down into the little gold at the bottom.
Speaker 2:So you wanna start with top of funnel.
Speaker 1:Look at, you go already making logic out of nothing. Bravo, I love, love, love, love.
Speaker 2:I feel like I don't know where you're going with this. Tell me all the things. So, as a starting point, I truly don't know where to go with this. Where are we starting? What are we talking about? Where are we actually starting?
Speaker 1:with this. We're talking about how like, we're talking about the metrics and the numbers and some cool stuff around the front end outside of the tent of someone's program.
Speaker 2:I guess a good place to start is to like actually be clear on what we mean when we say this.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's a great idea. That's a great idea. So the last episode, what you were talking about was what we were calling internal metrics. Now we're talking about external metrics so that is the fancier way of saying that and so we're looking at things that are more like what are your conversion rates look like? Well, how do you know what is a good CPL? What is an EPL? Why does an EPL matter? What are all these crazy acronyms that we're using? Why are they important? Why do they matter? The things that you're tracking that essentially point to where your revenues come Like the things that are the big, flashy metrics. The last episode, we talked about the not so flashy metrics that actually are very flashy when you understand why you need them and why you should be tracking them, and how they actually are extraordinarily helpful to you longterm. They're probably more helpful to you longterm than your external metrics are, because your external metrics are the big fireworks on the outside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then a lot of people celebrate there are some vanity. I'm gonna ask you which ones are the vanity metrics in the external metric world. But ultimately, like these two things by your powers combined, internal and external. If you can nail both, you're off to the races. You got something really, really rad going on.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, that's when you can nail them both. That's you. When you nail them both. I'm going to I don't know if I wanna say this is the hard and fast rule but if you can nail both, then you are going to be covered for your incoming pipeline and extending the longevity of your lifetime client value. Because the external metrics, when you get those dialed in, that's what points to how you can understand. You just create a machine on the front end to get people in and convert them, but dialing in your internal metrics, that creates the machine of just keeping people in the system and wanting to work with you because you're delivering high quality, you're delivering what you say you are and they're sticking around or they're continuing to send you people 100,000 million percent Bingo.
Speaker 1:So we've got these external metrics, but where would most people be starting, like, if they're going? Oh yeah, cool. I heard some acronyms and I passed out Like what are people's most like common? Maybe let's go like top three, that you would come across as external metrics. What are the three? That sort of float around and doing the rounds at the moment.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, you're looking at what's the detonation point, so that's the true top of funnel. I don't know if this is really how you're asking this, but that's how I'm interpreting it. So where's the detonation point? What are the metrics around, like the true top of funnel? Then what are the metrics when they're just sort of floating around, if they're in a nurture period, and then what are the metrics around the actual conversion itself?
Speaker 1:Nice. So you've got, like you've got top of funnel, which is like is that everyone's? So help me understand, because if I've got the question, chances are no one else does, and that means I'm the lowest common denominator here, which is great. So you'll capture me and you will capture everyone else along the way. Top of funnel is that like the first time that they hear about you, or is it like a cold? Is it like cold traffic? Or like how do you define top of funnel?
Speaker 2:for that's a good question. So I think that depending on who you ask, you might get a different answer for this. So if you look at a very traditional marketing funnel, you could define your top of funnel as the interaction, the awareness they become aware of you and the solution. And that's the top of funnel from a really high level. I don't look at it that way because I look at the pieces of your client journey is really broken into what's your prospect journey versus what's the actual customer journey. And to get into the prospect journey it's more than awareness. You need more than just awareness. You need actual engagement, you need interaction. So it's the point at which they actually engage with you.
Speaker 1:Ooh nice. Okay, so that's a little bit broader than what I was originally thinking, but yeah, if the point is engaged, like once they engage they progress into another part of the ecosystem or inside the external world, Do you say it's broader?
Speaker 2:because were you expecting me to say like it's where you capture email address?
Speaker 1:That's the first thing that came to my mind is when you said like that's where I like, capture them and then they get nurtured and then they do something. That could be. That could be the way I understood that.
Speaker 2:I completely agree. But also there are tools now that you can capture leads and you don't. They don't belong to you. So if you talk, if you want to look at like the assets you own, then, yeah, you're capturing your email address, you're getting them to buy in in some certain way. But, like, look at a tool like many chat, which is, if you're not familiar with many chat, is it links to like your Instagram or your Facebook or it links to a bunch of different places and you essentially can create a lead capture through many chat.
Speaker 2:No one is exchanging information with you through that tool. They're not giving you an email address, they're not giving you a phone number. They're simply engaging and they're clicking a button or they're sending a message or they're commenting a word that detonates something else. That's a detonation point where they are actively raising their hand to say, yeah, please do send me the link and maybe you will get their email address that way. But it could also be like I just last night, as of last night, I started a client many chat funnel.
Speaker 2:So it's on my brain of why this came to mind, of if someone registers for the thing, then they have the option of raising their hand to say, hey, we would like one of two freebies. So it's a little bit backwards, because in this point someone had already registered for something, that you can do this without that. They don't have to have registered for some things. They say, no, send me your script, send me the framework for this post. Send me, you know, like you've got, a LinkedIn script that you have for engaging with people from corporations to sell your course to. They raise their hand for that. They're not exchanging information but you send it to them and that you can detonate that funnel that way and then you have some type of lead engagement built in after that. You don't own that because you don't own your platform. Zuckerberg does, but it's a more modern way of thinking about it, I guess.
Speaker 1:By the way, yeah, it's another way of doing it. I like that you're looking at it in terms of sort of like that detonation point. That's really cool. And then is it again like, can I think of it as like lead generation? Like I want to get to the next stage of the conversation, so I need them to, like you mentioned, raise the hand. So once they've raised their hand, they then get maybe nurtured for a bit. What's the holy grail at the other end? So, like, what's the last point before they go inside the tent and start consuming the program, the course, the curriculum that we talked about in the previous episode, what's usually the vehicle or the thing that happens just before they shift tents?
Speaker 2:I mean it's going to depend on how you sell and what you sell, because your price point is going to make a big difference in that. But for me, that's where they are actively engaging in such a way that they're no longer just saying, hey, we've raised our hand for the free thing or for we will exchange our information to get whatever. Whatever you are offering, it's where they're. It's where they're now raising their hand to say I want to take, to take action. Our favorite thing to say to where they take action on I want to actively have a conversation with you. So it's the point at which they enter into the actual conversation. Got it? Whatever that conversation starter looks like, it could be an actual conversation let's have a discovery call. It could be a conversation of let's talk through this in the DMs. You can close in the game. It's the. It's the point at which they close. The conversation could be on your sales page If it's not a high enough price point to merit having a sales conversation or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah nice, okay, cool. So, yeah, a lot, of, a lot of people that I come across and I'm doing a. I'm doing a presentation at a conference in a couple of weeks and one of the things is we're talking about mortgage brokers, right? Or you've got mortgage brokers in the U? S around the world, they're everywhere.
Speaker 1:they're everywhere and without them how would we get low interest rates? I don't know, but the the holy grail for them is a phone call, Like they can do also, so stitching in what you've sort of said there and then rather like confirming to myself that I've got this right for my conference presentation, which is strange but still cool is conference presentation right now with you, I'm basically, like I'm just going to like, use this and just your photo up there is, like this is the person who's going to be delivering this, but they're they're over in the U?
Speaker 1:S and they couldn't be here today, so I'm doing it instead. But yeah, they can do all this lead generation, like they can give away, like this free calculator, this, you know, this free tool, this checklist, and all this sort of stuff which gets them to raise their hand, detonate and then get into their little ecosystem. So that would be a set of metrics of its own and then be set like good numbers which we'll go through. But then for these brokers, there's no way that I'm going to trust anyone with my home loan or my investment property loan unless I have a chat with you. So the holy grail to become a customer and go into the tent for a mortgage broker is a phone call or a booked call. That's the, that's the end of the road that all they're nurturing should lead to. Either you're not interested in you, don't dig what I do, see you later or let's get on a. Let's get on a call and maybe you become a client of mine.
Speaker 2:Well, that's I mean I have I've known a couple people who are they sell mortgages, but that I mean it really comes down to, I think, the first big point, the way that I teach this, the prospects journey, comes down to two primary points of the four points. And that's it's consuming, and then it's actually engaging, because it's more than just engaging in the sense of like let me like your posts or let me comment on it it's that's consuming. They're still, it's a passive action that they're taking, whereas when they're actually engaging, where they're interacting, that's that's active. You get someone on a phone call, that's an active action. That's sort of redundant, whereas let me give you my email address, I mean that's, it's serious. It's serious enough that they're into like I'm not giving my email address to just anybody, like I get too many emails already.
Speaker 2:Most people, I think, feel that way. But that phone call, whatever that thing is, that's going to be the bridge to purchase. That's the key Cause. Once you get past that engagement period, then you're moving to purchase Sort of that bridges. It's how you got to get there and it's through a conversation of some sort.
Speaker 1:So that sort of painted the landscape a little bit. Where do you, where do you want to start in terms of, like the metrics, like overlaying some metrics into into this world, cause I want to let you choose where that conversation starts and then, wherever you choose to start it we'll talk about. We'll talk about that, cause I reckon there's a whole bunch Like I reckon there's like subsets of numbers and metrics through all this, all this entire thing. So where do you want to kick off?
Speaker 2:Do you want to start at the big? Do you want to those three, those three points, and we can talk to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so if I'm just, if I'm just perusing and passively consuming your stuff and we want to start there, yeah, that sounds good, cause that's pretty conventional.
Speaker 1:Right, that's pretty. That's pretty much what like the what most people who are either in this or getting into this that's what they're hearing Like. You need to put out stuff that makes people aware that you exist. They see your face, they read your stuff, they start to know you, they start to like you and then maybe one day they might trust you and fall in love with you enough to give you some dears.
Speaker 2:And to that point I think it's important to to note, like when you cause you said you've already brought up the concept of vanity metrics. Vanity metrics are going to be I'm going to try to say this right, cause I don't think I've ever articulated this in this way your vanity metrics are going to be things that you can track, but you don't have control over that. You don't have control of really changing, whereas the metrics that are going to be more important to you are the things that you've got some leverage around. So, if you're looking at metrics on social media like, of course you can track, well, my follower count increased by 2% this month, or 5% this month, or whatever, or my you know, I got X number of likes and that's X percentage of my audience, and I got this many comments, and that's X percentage of my audience. And and and there are.
Speaker 2:I've heard some people get real bad on a shape about like. Oh well, you've got 10,000 followers, but only you know 10 to 20 people are liking each post. Clearly you bought your followers. That's not always true. It is a like that's it's. It can be suspicious, but like that's it's not necessarily true. Like that's so, especially on Instagram. Like it's. There's so much cross-contamination of people trying to follow other people in their industry to try to get an idea of what they're talking about, to try to like be inspired for their own content, to just like creep on what people are doing, that they're never going to engage with you. So there, there are a lot of people that have followers that are simply never going to engage because they're not your ideal client, but they're following you anyway.
Speaker 1:But it's interesting you say that because, like in this in the finance world, I've I've got a client who has all these people that are just like sitting back in the in the, in the shadows. They wouldn't like a single thing, but they call him like they'll just jump on the flight. They'll reach out to him privately and say I really love that post you made six months ago. Can we have a chat? I'm ready now.
Speaker 2:That's a, so that's a different. That's that is his ideal client or her ideal client. That's their ideal client and that's a person who's a lurker. I call them lurkers, it's someone who's a lurker?
Speaker 2:I've seen some people who call it like they're it's so much a nicer of a term. I call them lurkers. You've got lurkers. You've got engagers and you've got unicorns. You've. Lurkers are people who they're going to hang around and hang around, and hang around and hang around and you're never going to even know they're there, because they're just going to watch they're. They're the lawyers, they're lurkers. They're lawyers. They just want to, like, sit and watch what you've got going on and they they're probably.
Speaker 2:This is making some, some psychological assumptions. They're probably people who are a little bit more risk averse or they need more details, or it could be that your content is not speaking to them, because there are a lot of different buyer types and if you're not speaking to each of the buyer types, it's going to take somebody longer to buy because you're not speaking to the things that they need. Like, there's a lot of like don't speak to, like the offer itself. You need to speak to the value that it actually articulates. Some people want to know the structure. The breakdown of this is how many modules you're going to get and this is how much time it's going to take. And this is the bonus structure. This is, and all the deep. They want the details, the details, the details, because they're detail-oriented. So if you're not speaking to all that, that could be the thing that's creating a lurker, when you didn't necessarily need to create a lurker.
Speaker 2:But there are some people that are just naturally like they're not going to do it until they feel comfortable, or they've been burned and they're hanging back, or there's all different kinds of reasons. Like you've got the lurkers, then you've got the engagers who, everything that you post, they're going to like it. They remember going to write you a little comment. Maybe it's because they like you and they just want to give you a little bit, they want to help you out, they want to engage with you. Maybe it's because you engage with them, equal it, like maybe your friends, maybe they're never going to buy, maybe they will buy, like they're just they're your little social butterflies. Maybe that adds to my weird metaphor of all these weird words that you've got your social butterflies, your lurkers, and then you're unicorns are the ones that they find you. They instantly connect and they buy and it's done and you've got to be.
Speaker 2:I don't want to say you need to be creating content for all of them, but I think you need to respect all of them. I don't want to say you need to be creating content for all of them, because if you're earlier on in your journey, like it's just one more thing you don't need to worry about it's going to create a distraction, but at some point, like you need to honor that everyone is at a different point on their journey. But to the point of, this person was sitting around and sitting around, and sitting around and sitting around and then all of a sudden asked for the call. Like that's normal, that people will do that. They just need to feel, they just need to feel ready.
Speaker 2:And that's why you don't really have a ton of control over your social metrics, so they are a little bit of it's just a vanity metric. Like I don't really care how many people engage. I care how many people are taking the call to action. My little cute way of saying it is like I don't really care how much engagement I get. I care how many people just head straight to the link to buy. Like I want people to go straight and I don't want them to take the action that I'm intending them to take. If it gets five likes, fine, I don't really care about that, but the metrics you can control around, like if you're paying for engagement, if you are paying for people to sign up for your webinar, you're paying to get people on sales calls like you should have some more control of that, because for that platform to continue taking your money, it should be performing the way that is intended. And most of the time when it's not performing the way that's intended, it's more user. It's not the platform, it's user error most of the time.
Speaker 1:That was going to be my next question around ad. Like paying for visibility, paying for people to do stuff. Yeah, too many times you hear our Facebook, facebook and Instagram ads suck like that doesn't work and, like you said, most of the time it's the it's not the platform's fault. The platform does what it's paid to do and then it comes back to you having more control. Like this is part of like you have more control, right? Because if no one's, if no one's clicking on something that you're paying to show them, then maybe something's wrong with what you're showing them or you're not showing the right people. Yeah, there's some cool stuff that you can do, right.
Speaker 2:Well here, first of all, to address the Facebook ad suck argument. It would be the worst business model in the world to position your business as something that I would like you to give me money, and then I'm going to actively try to not deliver you the service so that you will never give me money again. Worst concept ever. Mark Zuckerberg is not a multi-billionaire because he had a crappy business model. You can be ethically opposed to giving him more money. You can be ethically opposed to interacting on Facebook. Okay, that's one thing. But to say that Facebook ads just won't work it's not true. They want it to work, you just have to know how to like. Any strategy can work.
Speaker 1:If you work it, I can get a little soapbox around that you sure can, but more control, like the people would love to be hearing that they've got more control now.
Speaker 2:You have so much more control. If you want to be in control, if you are like the algorithm hates me and the algorithm sucks, you want more control over. You want to know that if you do X, then Y will happen. That's one of my. I love saying that, that's the goal. If I do X, I want Y. When you have control over those variables, you're gold. You can do anything. Let's scale it. If you want to have control over that, you have so much more control when you're paying for it, as long as you know it, as long as you know how to actually work it. And then there's also whether you come at it from okay, we are paying for this, we're not paying for it. It's you have to understand you have a cold audience and you have a warm audience and your metrics have to be viewed differently for each, because you're not you're not going to compare, if you've got metrics, for if you know as much as you know, I've got that detonation point.
Speaker 2:So someone is engaging with top of funnel. They're giving me an email address. That landing page is converting with the registration page, the landing page which is where someone, if you don't know that terminology, that's where someone's going to enter at least their email address, if not also their name, phone number, instagram handle, whatever you're asking for. If that landing page that it might be converting, you know, at 40% Good, that's a good number, we like 40. If it's converting it 40%, it's doing good. And then you go and you put money behind it to a cold audience and all of a sudden, or even not like you, just you get it in front of a cold audience that maybe just an audience that you hadn't spoken to before, and all of a sudden it's converting it 25% and you go. It's not working.
Speaker 1:Well, it's apples and oranges right Apples and oranges.
Speaker 2:Actually, it is working 25% to a completely cold audience. I'll take it. It could be improved, sure, but like for one out of every four people, one out of every four people who didn't know you at all, to say, okay, I'll give you my email address all day. I'll take it.
Speaker 1:Dude, that's seriously, that's seriously cool. So one in my jaded world where people might use like their success as like lead generation specialists or ad agencies, they could very well be saying that we get 50% opt-in rate or conversion rate on our audiences on our ads. They may be talking about their warm traffic, they might be talking about that, they might not be talking about cold. So having that reality check is really good. But what you love the most is like, if you don't have it, if you don't do anything, you've got no data to compare right. So if you do something and then you get some numbers, then you can start to twist the dials. That's what I'm hearing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it also can inform. Like, if you ever do want to go into a position of running paid ads or going to a colder audience, like if you are earlier on in your journey, do everything you can to engage your warm audience. Do whatever you can to build that warm audience and then promote to them. Don't worry about all the other stuff. The other stuff becomes shiny objects. But once you have the numbers and you can come to me and say this is all converting, like they're all pretty warm but it's converting it 50%, that's a really good indication that you can start to move it to cold. Not everything that converts warm will convert cold. It's not an absolute, but it's a really good sign to reduce your risk. If you do want to put money behind it or any type of resource time, money, energy, people if you want to systemize it, if you want to put your team on it, whatever that resource looks like, you can reduce your wit. You can reduce your risk the more data you have to back it up.
Speaker 1:So 50% to a warm audience, that's what the people would have heard.
Speaker 2:50% to a warm audience, that's that I mean, those are unicorn numbers, even to a warm audience. That's unicorn. That's a unicorn number. That's really high and all to the point. I think this also is important to keep in mind. Beyond just look at your cold off audience differently than you would your warm audience. You also have to keep in mind that when you sometimes, more often than not, if you have really high conversion rates and you're getting really good numbers, they might not actually you might be speaking too broadly to get the right people in. So like, for example, the last big thing that I ran was very specifically for people who were already close to the six figure mark in their business and it was a red flag for me to get. So my ad cost wound up being like $5, $6 per lead, which is fantastic, and a lot of people would look at that and go those are great numbers. Like, you can run that all day.
Speaker 2:I looked at that and went, oh, that concerns me a little bit because I don't know if it's making it too easy for people to opt in. Like, I want to make sure that I'm getting the right people in and it's, it's not. And it, the Facebook algorithm, the ads algorithm, learns Okay, this. These are the people it's going to. It's going to show it to the people who are going to opt in and wants to do its job. So it's going to continue to show it to people who are, who have similar behaviors.
Speaker 2:Because Facebook ads, beyond any other ad platform, is really intelligent that way, like it really understands behavior, which is why they're all the problems and there there are rules with the iOS 14 stuff and the privacy all that good stuff, because it's really good at tracking behavior. So it's going to sell. It's going to show it to more people who have the behaviors as other people who opted in. Well, if they're not already at that six figure or around that six figure mark, they're no good to me, especially me who will not accept someone into the big paid program that's not ready for it. So they literally are no good to me because I will not allow them to buy my thing. So sometimes, when metrics are the too good to be true they are, they can be too good to be true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's, that's really interesting. So so you could have. You could have what's considered great numbers for the first part of this adventure, which is bringing a truckload of people in. You're getting the email addresses that the detonation is going off, happy days, right. So in in isolation, success, great success. However, fast forward down further into the funnel and to the closer to the magical moment of the bridge into the external, inside the business and that making that sale. You might find that it's not all sunshine and rainbows when you run the numbers there. No that, because that starts to then show that, oh, I got all these people super cheap, or I got heaps of people who were interested, but they're not the right people to buy, because that's what you found out to, didn't you like you, you had a whole subset of that group of people from these amazing numbers at the front, at the top, that then ended up not being completely suitable for the program that you were trying to sell them into.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, that's. It's exactly what happened. I had. I had a lot of people who were as I was concerned for, had a bunch of people who were not at the right point to be ready for this, and so that means I have catchy messaging. That means I did a good job at positioning what I was, or didn't do a good. Good enough job because it didn't position it well enough, but it was. It was catchy enough, it was flashy enough that it did its job, but it didn't do a good enough job of attracting the right people. And it's, you know, the concept of.
Speaker 2:I think we all more or less can understand that I would rather have 10 of the right people, then 1000 of the wrong people who are. I don't really buy into the like 1000 people there. You built an audience of 1000 people and they're not buyers. People buy stuff literally every day like everyone's a buyer. They're just not the right buyer. I want the right buyers. I would rather. I would rather pay more if I'm paying for things, or I would rather put more energy If I'm expending energy, or I would rather put more resources behind if I'm putting a team or a system or whatever behind it. To get 20, then I would 10 or 20, then I would to get those 1000 people for nothing. Let's just quickly have a, have a, have a round of get to know. Steven Adrian, you consider yourself to be like you love knowledge. Yeah, like I've heard like you, internal student.
Speaker 2:Yeah what are three things that are on your bucket list to learn that you haven't yet?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I dance. I dance with the like I do the dance of delusion in the land of confusion, that I will learn to code properly, like I will like. Coding coding's been sort of like this mythical thing because I play in text so much, but I'm like the. I've been the quintessential bridge between the nerds and the non nerds, so I know enough to talk to the nerds, but the nerds do all the heavy lifting but the nerds lack the communication skills to speak to the non nerds, who usually have the money that are funding their projects. So yeah, one day, one day, I would like to learn how to code.
Speaker 1:What's another one? Another one would be like to get better at mathematics but more like mathematical modeling. I'd like to do that from a finance perspective. That's on my list of things to learn maths, good math. Yeah, we put s in Australia.
Speaker 2:That's why I said that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you admit the s. Thank you for speaking culturally to my people.
Speaker 2:I was really a maths just really over. Emphasize the s.
Speaker 1:Well, if you say math, if you, if you mispronounce that maths, that's married at first sight, which is sort of like a Bogan Australian get married at first sight show. It's like a mock you drama thing that's quite controversial in Australia. Everyone watches it when it's on.
Speaker 2:We have? I think we have something like that. I'm not in. I'm not in.
Speaker 1:It's like that.
Speaker 2:It's like that rubbish trash. Do you watch trash TV like that? That's a different. You haven't answered my first question yet.
Speaker 1:I think that's just just to just to like relax my soul a little bit. And then I think the third. I think the third thing. I think it'd be something to do with like something practical, maybe around like the culinary, the dark culinary arts. I would like to refine some making skills, maybe.
Speaker 2:Maybe because I missed out on the covert sourdough, you know manufacturing so maybe something like that Do you like to? You like to barbecue?
Speaker 1:I know that we can, we can barbecue. Yeah, barbecue aka grill. We can, we can do that you can grill.
Speaker 2:well, would you like lose your Aussie citizenship if you couldn't like? When you say it like, it's not that at all.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. There are a lot of Aussies that are incapable of. It's just like panic. It's like sometimes like panic panic at the disco, when you're on the, when you're on the barbecue. And I remember, like when I was in the States, someone, someone brought some, some, some really good quality steak and I got nervous because they're like I see if you're, you've got an Aussie accent.
Speaker 1:Can you barbecue or grill this person? Like I got on the grill and this dude like these were like $50 stakes and he's like yeah, medium rare, please, and like what one? What do I look? Like? A frigid chef, like sorry, I don't take orders from you, but to I watch those states like a Hawkman and it was dark, like I love super nerve right now that you know that.
Speaker 2:do you know the finger trick?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got finger tricks. You've got like this trick.
Speaker 2:You've got like play the guitar trick, like yeah there's a whole bunch of no to feel for done this.
Speaker 1:I like the good ones, just know the good ones just.
Speaker 2:Connor, I love to cook. Yeah, oh yeah. What's like you go to what you go to go?
Speaker 1:to dish Like if you were, if you were looking to impress. What are you going to bang out that you could do without? A recipe like you could just be like boom. That's a warning.
Speaker 2:I don't do recipes. Oh man, I guess it would depend on who it's. So here's, here's, here's. A fun fact about me is I'm a vegetarian, so that's the, that's the asterisk around this, but I'm very happy to cook meat like I will if, depending on who is coming for dinner, I will gladly whatever you want. I think the most, the thing that I'm most commonly asked for is apparently make it fantastic lasagna. Really good, marcella. So if you want the chicken or the veal you don't know what, you don't know what like a chicken. Marcella dishes.
Speaker 1:Are you talking about masala like an Indian dish?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, not masala, marcella, like it's a, it's a wine, it's a type of hey, no, but I don't know, mars? If yes, if I was saying it in Ozzy accent, there would not be an. Are there Mars? It's a wine sauce. That's like you can put a little, just a little bit, of cream in it. It's very good. I don't know, I can like almost anything I would put. That's my big claim. Is you tell me what you want and I could make it Okay?
Speaker 1:good to know.
Speaker 2:Or bake it pumpkin cheesecake. Cheesecake is not really a big thing in our store.
Speaker 1:Maybe cheesecake is one of my favorite things when done well, if done well, a whole cheesecake will be consumed by me in one sitting.
Speaker 2:We could be good friends, because I want to bake everything and I don't want to eat it Like, I just want to.
Speaker 1:Okay, good, good, but like you're a vegetarian, you're not a vegan, right? Because a vegan cheesecake gets expensive real quick Cause you end up putting like two pounds of cashew nuts in the whole thing, like it's.
Speaker 2:That's a good one. I remember.
Speaker 1:I remember like I had some vegan friends and we're like, yeah, we're gonna make a cheesecake, can you go and get the ingredients? And I'm like, okay. And it's like, and I'm doing the conversion for you, but it's like two pounds of cashew nuts, so it was like $47. And what am I buying all these cashew nuts for? And it's like, oh, we need to do cashew nut base, cashew nut cream, filling cashew nuts on the top, and then we'll have some nuts on the table to eat as well. It's like come on.
Speaker 2:No, no. The reason that I will never be a vegan is because of cheese, actually.
Speaker 1:Cheese is a decent thing.
Speaker 2:Like if you said what's your favorite food? Cheese. I love cheese, but yeah, so I could never be a vegan for that reason. But yeah, my grandma's recipe for cheesecake there is nothing better in the entire world than a cheesecake Do you want to like.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of the things for me as well, is that, even though, even though and we've talked about this, this whole concept of legacy I just want recipe books, man, I just want to sit with old people and just be like Mavis. Mavis is like my alter ego, like my old person alter ego. So if I say Mavis, it's like all old people will be Mavis, right. So be like Mavis, talk to me, like teach me your, teach me your sorcery, or like my you know, my accountant's mom is it like their Italian and so she's an honor. They've got an honor Like there's nones everywhere, and like they hold the keys to the city, like they've got like there's the Italian keys to the city to make stuff taste good. Extract that knowledge, give it to me.
Speaker 2:That's when we talked about legacy and you had said, like what would it be like to? You had asked a friend like you're not just making your father's recipe, or if I'm remembering it correctly, but if you actually had your dad speaking through the recipe and these are being written but why he did what he did and just like to. And I remember when you asked me that I was like I would kill to have that for my grandma, like give anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting thing. It's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:So, much knowledge is going to go. Man Like this generation this is where all the cool stories are. Like the grandparents of today or the oldies of today, the mavis of today are like the last lot that came over to Australia on a boat like 10 pounds, 10 pound poms, like they paid 10 pounds to sail from the UK to Australia and start a life with a briefcase. Like that's it, like there's very few after this generation goes. Where's all that? Where's all those cool stories going to go? Come on.
Speaker 2:That's. I mean, that's that's sort of my story. I mean, my dad is an immigrant. We've got, I've wore past that point in America. Most, most people here have been here for a minute but that's yeah, my dad immigrated and my how far on the other side we'll just talk heritage now is half American Indian. So really been here and this will be surprising for you. Would you have ever guessed Chinese, damn.
Speaker 2:No, I would not have I'm part Chinese, yeah, my three primary or multi primarily Maltese, Chinese, American Indian and I look Irish. I don't know that's somehow those things mixed together and I came out looking Irish or Scottish or something.
Speaker 1:When did you win the cultural melting?
Speaker 2:pot Weird. It's a weird mix. Anyhow, that was a fun little. That was a fun little break. All right, let's get back to it.
Speaker 1:And, to echo some of the stuff that we've covered in the past, where there are people that are just celebrating the vanity metrics. You would be hearing from people who are like, oh, we got $2 appointments for our clients, but what they will never tell you is how many of those clients, how many of those $2 appointments, actually converted. Chances are those vanity metrics are good from far, but as soon as you look under and go, well, what's going on here? They were all rubbish and not the right buyers who ended up doing anything. But the justification would be well, we did our job to get you the booked calls.
Speaker 1:You just stuck at sales. You didn't convert them. Like, that's your problem for that example, which may not be the case, because what you just said as well, was you would rather have less attractive metrics in terms of volume at the front. But knowing that those people that come in in the front are the right people and they're like your unicorns or they're like you're super engaged to, then when you get on a call to try and sell them something, boom, they're in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's a great question to ask. We learned this together. I had never heard the question posed this way from the program that we were in. Are you in a stage right now where do you want friction or do you want volume? It's a fantastic question to ask and I've adopted it into my own business that when I start working with someone, like where I'm gonna do marketing for them that's the question I want the answer to. Do you want friction or do you want volume? Do you want me to send you all the people that I can possibly send you? And then it's on you. You do the close and you might get.
Speaker 2:I'll send you 100 people and you're gonna have to work really hard to close 10 or 20 of them. Because if you get on a really high volume call model like that like if you've seen an advertisement for like people who are advertising, I'll get you appointments for $2, or we'll put setters in your business for $5 an hour or we'll book out your appointment calendar. Like if you can convert 10 to 20% of those, you can scale it. Those numbers to me are abysmal but they're scalable because you've got the volume coming in and if you're selling at the right price point and you've got the right profit margins, like there's all kinds of other numbers to look at at that point that it's too.
Speaker 2:It would be that would be just too much to get into right now that it's absolutely scalable, you can make that work, whereas if you want more friction and this is what I've always preferred and it doesn't make it right, it's just my preference is I would rather, instead of getting 100 people, I would rather get 10 and close nine of them, and that's what, and I am a little competitive, so I do like to like it would slightly bruise my ego a little bit to like lose because I don't think I've not closed a sales call in like two or three years. Like my close rate is extraordinary, but it's because I'm really it's called a gates about the way I qualify people.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of gates, there's a lot of hoops to jump through. I have a lot of gates.
Speaker 1:I have a lot of gates people jump through. You said some cool words along the way, which I think is just relevant to touch on to make sure that our wonderful ears that are joining us aren't lost in the paddock or in the forest. And they are shepherdless, because we are the shepherds that are guiding them through this, through this wonderful adventure. You said like conversion, you said calls, you said conversion rates, all that sort of stuff. What we're talking about there is obviously that bridge and we're also talking about that. You could be a call, you could do a phone call, you could do a Zoom meeting, you could do a DM to Google Doc to pay money, and that's the like, that's your conversion. So it's basically any, the step that makes them buy whatever you're selling. That's a metric in itself, right, and a very important one.
Speaker 2:In this sense, a conversion rate could be. You can have a conversion rate on something that's free. In this sense, the conversion rate is attached to money, so it's the trigger point for which someone hands over their credit card.
Speaker 1:And then you use it and then we've also talked about, obviously, like someone, someone gives you your details, like they do the detonation to get the free thing or to inquire or come into your world, and then there's another one. So there's multiple conversion rates, right? So there's like the conversion rate from A to B and then they come into your universe and then there's another conversion rate and maybe another one like, depending on, depending on what the people are using, there's multiple conversion rates. Does the number like? Is it like it starts up high and then, as it gets closer to the bridge moment, the conversion rate decreases? Or? But what you've been saying is like, if you do it right, like if you qualify them correctly, you might actually see that you have like that, actually, the conversion rate increases when you get to the sale call message, whatever the bridge is.
Speaker 2:The more friction you intentionally put in front of people that you add to the top of your funnel.
Speaker 2:The metrics that you're gonna be looking for are far higher on the backend than they would be if you were going for volume, and that's why that's where we haven't really talked about this, like all the stuff in the middle, the nurture part.
Speaker 2:That's why those numbers are also important, because it's not so much at looking like, looking at conversion rates or percentages of things. It's more about looking at time. When you can understand so at the beginning, what does it cost to acquire a lead? What does it cost to acquire a customer? The time that's the nurture piece is if you know that it, on average, at the point of detonation to the point of pulling out that credit card, is, on average, 30 days, 45 days, 60 days, 90 days, whatever that number is for you, then you have a much more accurate measurement by which to make decisions on the front end, especially when you look at starting to use your resources, especially if you're putting money behind it, to know how much time it's gonna take you to make your money back or to make your time back or whatever it is that you're looking for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's super powerful.
Speaker 2:Really powerful and that's a little advanced. If you are like, wow, this number's thing, the metrics thing, like this is all new, like don't worry about that, but it is at some point that's gonna be one of your keys to the kingdom at some point. To know, like I just built, you know this because you're on this person's email list. I can say her name. She told me last night she was like you can use my name anywhere you want, like you can talk about me. So Elle, has you put a totally new strategy in place for her around? It's an ad strategy, but it goes into email marketing and it's essentially using email marketing the way that she has had so much success with social media marketing, and so it puts money behind something that's an owned asset rather than doing everything organically through an asset that I hate.
Speaker 2:This doomsday talk of like if it all goes away, but like if it all goes away. So you know what we've seen is not just actually really fantastic ROI, like we've been doing this for about 60 days, but we have data that shows us that she's getting a crazy return on investment like within 30 days. That's unbelievable. And to know that you can make X back within 30 days, that it just makes everything like. I hate to use the word scalable behind things, because not everything is about scaling, not everything needs to be scaled, but like that's scalable, who would not? I'm gonna put in $1,000 to get 10,000 back, because she's looking at numbers like that right now, within 30 days. Magic, that's magic.
Speaker 1:Would you scale something without data Blind? No, no. I think that's a really important point and I think that dovetails in to the power of if people are listening and going, well, I don't know, I don't know this number or I don't collect that number. If all you do at the end of listening to this is start to figure out and go on, piece together and start collecting that data to tell a story, Bravo, Like that's a massive win because without it you don't have anything to base your next move on. And that's the real important thing is that if you know and that's the confidence that data gives you right If you do the work and you've got the data and you know that if I spend $1,000, I'm gonna make 10,000, you win Game over, dude, like you've clocked it. If you can maintain that and keep that spinning ta-da.
Speaker 2:That's it. That's it. Well, it comes back to that if X, then Y, if you know X is $1,000 and Y is make 10, and you know that when X equals Y like you've got the variables all day you can scale that all day if you want to. You don't have to, and also I also would not scale something that operationally could not be handled, because then you mess with your internal metrics.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's really. That's a really cool overlap as well, yeah is that you come to kill if you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you could sell all day long if you, if you're getting all these leads and these conversion rates. You're getting people on calls, they're giving you the credit card, but you're maxed out after 10 clients and you keep selling. You ain't getting lifetime client value. You're gonna actually like to track people and you will struggle. You'll have a great front end For a little while and then, yeah, it's not gonna it's not gonna play out, which is why you have to have both work. Yeah, really nice really nice.
Speaker 1:Oh man, there's some other cool things that came out about that as well. And it's like not not everyone is the same in this scenario, but like you talked about the, the nurture, what, what would be an example I so you, without you talked about, like there's some email, some email marketing going on. Is that sort of like? Is that something that is quite, quite common in terms of the nurture? So like if I, if I gave you my email address to something, you give it to me like a checklist or a cheat sheet or a workshop, and then it's after that that I go into this.
Speaker 1:If I don't do anything after getting that straight away, I go into this sequence for use of a bad word where you're just giving me some value, some insight, you're keeping me up to date with what's going on, you're keeping me in love with you. You know that's a thing what's what's? What's? What's what's in those that like, like. Are you putting stuff in each of those, like Touchpoints that then directs them or invites them to go to the next stage, or is it a bit of a nuance thing?
Speaker 2:Yes and nuance. I would also say, unless you are like, really into this, it's not necessary, it's more, it's. It's another one of those. This is, this is part B, this is part C. This is a little more down the road, but if you look at you can see I would. I would bet you money. I don't bet anything. You will never. You will never catch me playing a slot machine not ever. I Do not put money, I do not bet money. I will bet you money that if you did an experiment where you broke a funnel in half and you brought a hundred people in one side and a hundred people in the other side and on one, you let them self-select and let them write their own ticket and essentially advance their journey as they felt called to and Took a much more flowy approach.
Speaker 2:Some people would say this like more the feminine approach of things, where you're not like really engaging them. I think that that's a false, that's a, that's a fault. I know a lot of people who would call that a more feminine approach. I disagree with that Anyhow. And you took the other people through a more structured. At this point, they're gonna get this and at this point they're gonna, they're gonna get that and I want to guide them intentionally through the journey. So it's an intentional flow as opposed to just let them go and let them come to me when they're ready and they're gonna get what they're gonna get. Like when I send my regular emails and whatever I would put money, that the second side, where you were guiding someone's journey, is going to outperform the first side. Here's where I. Here's where I would maybe not put money behind the numbers, but like five to one, ten to one, twenty to one.
Speaker 1:Guided over. Guided over like choose your own adventure your own adventure all day.
Speaker 2:When you just let people, they're gonna self-settling number one people's attention span like they just don't have the attention span. You are putting way too much trust that someone likes you that much because we talk about this. I can't remember we talk so much. I don't remember if we've talked publicly in the little course We've got. I don't know where we've talked about this. People don't care. People care about themselves and their life. If they've got kids that care about those things that they got a pet, they care about that. They don't care about you. They don't care about what you're saying. They don't care about your emails. They don't care. They care about what you can do for them. Show me the money there's. We can bring in a different movie there.
Speaker 1:There it is, there it is.
Speaker 2:Show me the money fiction quote we couldn't, that's, we could try.
Speaker 1:that's fine, we don't have to, and like that's some Damn Jimmy, this is some gold me shit.
Speaker 2:Ah, oh my gosh. I haven't watched Pulp Fiction in like 10 years and I need to. What happened is that it's dead. Baby is that's dead we don't have a culture viewing party, there we go.
Speaker 1:That could be cool. Yeah, and I think that's. I think that's super, I think that's super interesting. And they choose your own adventure versus the guided journey. That's cool. And if Adrian's saying that she's gonna bet money, chances are. You need to listen up folks. You need to listen to what's being said. There might read between the lines and go Hello take the check.
Speaker 2:So you talked about me up on it.
Speaker 1:You talked about friction, right? So Everyone's got their own, everyone's at their own position, everyone's at their end stage. Is there a time, is there a time to add friction? To like, if you add friction you get more data, right, then if you don't, you've got more data points.
Speaker 2:So If you say that one more time, if you do or you don't have friction.
Speaker 1:So if you add friction, so let's say you, you know, before I can book a call, I have to fill out a survey like a qualified. I have to answer like 10 questions. That's friction. So what that then gives you is that then gives you another Other data set to be able to play with. To see this many people came to the survey and then this many people filled it out, this many people jumped on the call and this many people bought the program like is that, is there a time? Or does like is there a time to add that in other than I just want more qualified people? Or what's the? What are the? What's the thought process behind friction?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question. I think it's circumstantial. If I had to go, if I had to go wide, I would say Don't add too much friction before you figured out, until you've developed some type of excellence around the task that you were trying to Accomplish. So let's just say, with sales calls, this is easy to understand. I would not really encourage someone to add friction into their, their discovery call process. I would add enough to make sure that you're not completely what like if it's someone who's absolutely like not qualified, like yeah, let's, let's maybe not just like let anybody book a call and we got a call with everybody, like that's, you're doing market research call at that point. But to develop some type of excellence around how to read between the lines of what someone's saying, how to, especially if you are a person who and I don't, I really don't encourage this in the beginning but like where you are, maybe alter offering multiple things or you've got different price points or whatever that looks like to know Like it is not. If you've got a 10,000 version, 10,000 dollar version of your offer and a 5,000 dollar version of your offer, it is not the goal to put everybody to the 10,000 dollar offer first. That should not be the goal. The goal should be to learn how to listen well enough so that you, as the expert, understand which version of that is going to meet their needs best and you're not.
Speaker 2:When you're like it's already a sales call is already like it's kind of a high pressure situation because it's not natural. Like it's not natural for somebody to Especially if it's a personal brand, you're selling your own stuff Like it raises the stakes on some things. And what happens when most people get into a slightly more pressurized, they've got a little bit of nerves, they've got they go there right before they get onto the call. They've got some like Some rumbles in the tummy, like it's a little bit more nerve-racking, it's a little higher stakes, and what happens when you go into those situations is you turn your ears off and you are listening To respond instead of listening to understand.
Speaker 2:And when you don't have those skills developed so that you have excellent like that is that's the skill that you have to develop to become excellent at a sales call, whether you want to have a very laid-back approach to them or if you do want to like really dive into handling objections or whatever. The skill that you must acquire is you have to be a really good listener and listen to understand, not to respond. And when you don't have those skills, you have not developed the excellence to be able to Appropriately and effectively conduct that task. So when you don't have that, develop it. So don't worry about friction, let some volume in so that you just you get better at it. Like, treat it like I say this a lot like it's you become a scientist. Let it be your little lab, let it be your experiment and learn how to get better at it. That was a really long explanation.
Speaker 1:Like. I think it's. I think it's perfect because it unlocks another version of like, another way to play with data, right? Is that you you're suggesting? You're suggesting that you know, unless you, unless you have got mastery or Excellent at sales calls, open the floodgates and just like, flex those muscles, those muscles, and just train, trying to get stronger. But I would imagine, once you've got stronger and if you are listening and hearing what's being said, you'd be able to then, with confidence, apply the right friction to get more of the people that ended up being suitable for the cause, because there would be some commonalities between those. But again, you wouldn't know, if you over friction before it's been proven, you might get really good people, but because you're not excellent at sales calls, you're going to lose them, and then that data is not technically accurate or valid, because it's not that they were the wrong people, it's just that you suck, sucked a little bit. Yeah, that's right, we all suck in the beginning, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And, as you were saying that, the other thing that brought up for me and this is partially a reminder to myself is we do all suck a little bit in the beginning and we're all going to go back to points at which we suck again. Otherwise we're not going to grow, and so this isn't just like oh, you're the newbie, you're learning how to. I don't I'm not here to speak to newbies, really like that's not really my, even my business model. So I know that there are going to be newbies listening to this who need to hear that and I want to address it. But like this could be for the person who's already making a million or 10 million or 100.
Speaker 2:We are all going to go back to the sucky point and if you're not willing to just like sit back and say, like I need to relearn this skill or learn it in a different way, because I'm using it in a different way, like you have to be willing to be the beginner again, and that is I'm like I'm already mad at myself for saying it because I need to take my own advice, because that's I'm at that point and something for myself where I'm like I this will be surprised you. I'm going to let the floodgates open a little bit and I'm going to take what's not just anybody, not just anybody.
Speaker 2:There is still, there'll still be, friction, but like I'm going to get over myself a little bit and just like start talking. I need to. I need for that thing that it told me my messaging was off, the thing that we talked about in 1020, however long ago. It's been that like I wound up bringing in some of the wrong people, a lot of the wrong people, for that offer. That tells me I, I went back to the sucky place a little bit. I need to learn how to get better. And how do you get better? Have conversations, fast cash through having conversations. And if you're not willing, if you're not willing to just like go back to the drawing board and like, ok, I'm willing to be a beginner here again.
Speaker 1:But it's the conversation. It's the conversation that gives you the input to decide which part of this adventure needs to be tweaked Right. So it could be, you know, oh, why, why didn't you? Hey, why why didn't you buy today? Like that's a, that's a valid question, that if you're confident on you, you could follow up and be like hey, would you mind? Like Just what was the main reason for you not, yeah, not buying from me?
Speaker 2:I like to ask that question, not including money.
Speaker 1:Sure yeah, take that, take that way and it might be, oh yeah, you just you just weren't very comfortable, like I just didn't feel very confident that you could deliver, like just didn't come across as confident, or like, if you listen enough, you might hear oh, I thought this was, I thought this was like a done for you program, but you were talking to me about a DIY program. Oh, there was a disconnect. So if you hear that once coincidence, if you hear it like multiple times, it's like oh, I'm going to say, is mine, is my message at the front of this whole thing? I go all the way back over here. Do I need to adjust that? Then, with that knowledge, you tweak that and then all of a sudden you run the numbers again and the test again it's like oh, I haven't had that person, I haven't had that comment where it's like I'm misaligned with DIY or done for you.
Speaker 2:That's weird.
Speaker 1:Huh, no, that's data working, that's like. That's like the magic qualitative outcome of quantitative activity. Quite that sound by that shit.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's well. I, because data is both qualitative and quantitative and the qualitative data is just is just as valuable, and I would I'm glad you brought us back to that to that, because it is oftentimes more valuable. It's, it's the best way to I don't want to say best, but it's a really great way of tweaking in a way that numerical data can't can't give you. I can make inter, I can. You can give me a set of numbers and I will tell a story with those numbers. That's one of my skills and I love doing it. Give me a set of data, give me a whole set of numbers, and I will, I will weave a story around it.
Speaker 2:But if you have someone writing the story for you because they are especially if you get people who are articulate, articulate, articulate enough to be able to tell you you just weren't confident enough or I was expecting a DIY and you sold me DFY or whatever done for you, done, done with you, done for you, whatever is, if they're articulate enough to tell you that that's gold. And I think there's also a sense of data, and here's where we can get off the rails. That is intuitive, that to some degree, and for anyone who's gotten this far and is like I hate data, I don't like numbers, I don't want to do it. This doesn't sound fun. There's also a huge sense of this that that if you are not allowing the intuitive part of understanding and interpreting what's going on to come through, you're going to miss a big piece of it.
Speaker 1:It's got to be, that's not a, it's not an either, or it's a both, and yeah, you've definitely like, since, since we've hung out and that's probably over the course of it could be, it could be almost as long as maybe 12 months. Are we? Are we at that level of our share? Feels, maybe it just feels longer than it is because we hang out so often and remember yeah, that's done.
Speaker 1:But what's what's happened is, like you, you've helped me sort of fall back in love with the need for data and so, as a result, like anecdotally, we're kicking around a new version of one of our programs and exactly what we're going to do is we're just going to do a frictionless, we're just going to do a frictionless environment and see what we get on our sales calls, to see what happens. And that's, yeah, hearing all this like this episode so timely, because, yeah, we're looking to do that in the next couple of weeks. It's going to be, that's going to be a super cool adventure, and I'm going to be paying attention to, you know, things that I wouldn't previously pay attention to.
Speaker 2:I love that super cool.
Speaker 1:And you just so happen to have a friend that is happy to look at that oh yes, someone, yes, someone can tell me stories about the data story, about this data pro tip from Steve would be something like fathomio would be a really useful qualitative tool to help you strengthen your sales call muscles. And if you don't know what that is, it's basically the sneaky little robot that comes into your zoom and records the session, transcribes it and allows you to go back and watch and listen and read where it went wrong, where it went right, and then you could start to. You could start to model the good ones and like learn from the not so the not so good ones. So so something like that for me is like pro tip for you know, helping to drill sales calls.
Speaker 2:You keep trying to get me on the spathom train. I might have to try it. I would take that a step further, though, and say watching them is I think they both are. They're going to give you different sets of information. If you really want to go deep into this is watching a sales call and I know that's so cringy to most people, like so many people hate listening to themselves watching themselves but it's going to give you, like, how do you think Michael Jordan became the greatest? How do you think, like any any pro athlete became as good as they possibly could be? It wasn't because they just, like, looked most of that I won't say all, but most of that Like they attribute a lot of that success to.
Speaker 2:They went back and they wash the tapes again and again and again before five minutes before the game. They're going to watch the. They're going to watch the tape. It makes you better to know, to know what you could, to watch yourself. Of course, it's going to be like oh, that was terrible. Did you hear what I just said? When you can get past that and and like really start to look at oh, I didn't hear this this way, or it's just really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, for sure. And then, is there anything? Is there anything else like? Is there any like a little cool little tips and tidbits that could be that could be used? I've got one without and I'll save it until you decide whether or not you've got any, but I don't. I'm going to preface mine with. Let's not let it suck us into a vortex of you know rabbit hole slash. Jumping off to another tangent.
Speaker 2:Have you got anything? I want to hear yours now.
Speaker 1:I'm just setting up a good like a good story. If you, if you've been recording some stuff about story marketing and some other things in other worlds that we're participating in, good story is setting up a nice little, nice little hook to get you interested.
Speaker 2:I know that is that does get me interested. I don't know, I mean, what I would go. I could just keep going on this like all day, all day, all day. I think I would reiterate that point of like well, I don't think I've actually said this. Start where you can, wherever, wherever this episode meets you, find the one thing that you can do to start doing something with this. If you're already doing some of it, let this be an invitation to do a little bit more Like just this does this is not. I would never expect someone to like come out of the gate or to hear this and like let's, let's do this and start looking at data and collecting data, and, and, and to the level at which I just described. Never in a million years. Take the one thing that sounds interesting to you. If it sounded interesting to like oh, I wonder how you like to track a convert, to track a landing page conversion rate I know that sounds super cool. Find the thing that's interesting enough that you're actually going to do, and and start there.
Speaker 1:I was just going to. I was just thinking about my talk in a few weeks in Sydney, and one of the things I'm talking about is is like use of use case for automation in nurture and like helping some metrics, and the only thing I want to talk about was like, if you're doing calls or zoom or anything like that, having a real like nice, so the human aspect of automation, having a real like your brand, your tone, your everything like reminder sequence and like something that encourages them to show up to the call. You can do it. Like you can use emails and text messages and Facebook, instagram, dms as a really weaponized way to stack the deck in your favor for one of the holy grail numbers, which is show rate of calls, like I booked a call, how many of them showed, and then you know you can. You can really use some cool stuff there to make that in your favor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a way to. If you're going for volume, that's a way to course correct the numbers that are going to. If you're going for volume, you're going to get lower numbers on that end. That will help course correct some of that, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's so many like that's a, that's the whole episode in itself, like the architecture of how to like boost show rate. But there's some really clever stuff that you can do.
Speaker 2:That'd be a really fun episode to record.
Speaker 1:Actually, that if the people want it, maybe we'll be able to, yeah, if the people want it, because we've got, we've got an actual sequence. That's, it's hard, it's, it's hardcore, but only hard like hardcore in the coolness, not hardcore in the complexity.
Speaker 2:That's even. That's even more hardcore in a way.
Speaker 1:There's the carrot, like his little carrot folks, like. There it is. I'm just dangling it, dangling in front of you, just whatever you got to do to ask and request it. Then that gets me back for like a fifth episode slash date.
Speaker 1:So Adrian what is the moral of the story when it comes to? So we've already been into inside the tent. We've got the internal data, we've got the internal metrics, got that covered. We've gone into this little adventure today of the external metrics and it's tricky because everyone's going to be at different points and we've said, just wherever you're at, go and like, find something that like resonated with you and start collecting that data. But what are some of the? What are some of the morals of the story? That we can sort of sum this up before we go.
Speaker 2:Let numbers inform your mindset. Don't. Don't freak out. I attribute data to mindset for this reason of there is absolutely nothing to freak out about, even when the data tells you that something is not going the way that you want it to. But like, especially when you can't point to the numbers are not going the way you want them to, you haven't had enough people go through it.
Speaker 2:It's not actually. Does that like? Ok, if you had 10 people and none of them converted? Well, that would mean if you had one, that would be a 10 percent conversion rate. That's super high. Doesn't actually tell you anything, just tells you need more people to go through the process. So to use, to use data as a, as a point of neutrality, to bring you back to like equilibrium and don't you don't have to freak out. Actually, I think that that's that's a good. That's a good point to end on. It doesn't need to be like a multi point, like that is a really crucial and decide Maybe I'm using this to just like buy myself time to talk to see if I have anything else to say.
Speaker 1:But if you finish up something as good as that, why, why would you need to add anything? Why would you need to add anything else? I think? I think it gives it gives everyone what they need, which is don't be afraid. Use it to inform, use it to make change, use it to repair, use it to fix, use it to pivot, but without it, don't do it like you can't do anything.
Speaker 2:You can, you can. You're just going to be guessing. That was a test.
Speaker 1:If you want to get, you pass the, you pass the test. You be guessing without data. Don't be the guesser. Be the calculator that can make calculated decisions. And spoiler alert that's Felicity Smokes, dad the calculator and you're watching our, so enjoy that. In season three, when the calculator comes in, you'll be like wow, steve managed to stitch an arrow episode and an arrow villain into the sixth edition of. Steve gets to hang out on the jeans podcast. What's the next episode? What are we doing? What's our next adventure?
Speaker 2:Do you know? I don't it's, it's, it's some, it's an air table.
Speaker 1:It's able, or unless the carrot, the forbidden carrot is bitten by the audience, we might do a special pop up.