A Lawyer's Pursuit of Freedom: Gary Miles Shares His Journey

Are you ready to break free from the constraints of your legal profession? Veteran trial lawyer, Gary Miles, joins us to share his powerful insights on creating a life of freedom and autonomy, all while balancing a thriving legal career. Known for his grit and tenacity in the courtroom, Gary is equally admired for his ability to negotiate life's tricky corners with grace and wisdom. His wisdom comes from a 40-year-long legal career and his experiences as the host of the Free Lawyer podcast. 

We navigate together through the often daunting world of law, exploring tactical approaches to difficult conversations and situations. Our journey takes us from managing high-pressure family law cases to maintaining professional relationships with opposing counsel. Gary's tips on assertive yet professional communication could be a game-changer for many in the profession. But that’s not all; we also delve into Gary's transformative coaching practice. He shares how he empowers lawyers to overcome mindset blocks and become aware of potential pitfalls that may be hindering their success.

But what about the pressures of the legal profession, you ask? We don't shy away from this tough topic. Gary and I candidly discuss the realities many lawyers face, including depression, anxiety, and substance abuse. We explore how shifting focus to our innate gifts and talents could possibly lead us to joy and fulfillment in the work we do. Gary’s tips on leveraging the power of networking, particularly on LinkedIn, could be a major career booster for many. So join us on this enriching journey as we discover how to balance professional success with personal fulfillment in the world of law.

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Brian Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury lawyer. He is passionate about living a life of his own design and looking for answers to solutions outside of the legal field. This podcast is his effort to share that passion with others.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I think so many of us get out of law school, we got law school debt. We take the highest paying job offer we get, which usually has the most prestige, because we really need the money to pay back our loan and we haven't really analyzed what do we want? What kind of work do I want to do? What size firm do I want to do? How much freedom and autonomy do I want to do?

Speaker 2: 0:23

Welcome to Time Freedom for Lawyers, where the goal is to become less busy, make more money and spend more time doing what you want instead of what you have. To bringing together guests from all walks of life who are living a life of their own design and sharing actionable tips for how you, too, can live the life of your dreams. Now here's your host, brian Glass.

Speaker 3: 0:51

Hey guys, welcome back to the show. On today's episode of Time Freedom for Lawyers, we have the free lawyer, gary Miles, who is a trial lawyer of 40 years at Huisman Jones and Miles, where he now practices with his son. Gary's the host of the Free Lawyer podcast and he's a coach who helps lawyers find freedom in their lives, whatever it is that that means to them. Gary, welcome to the show. Brian, thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here. I'm excited to have you, and you asked me this on your podcast towards the end. But I want to start with this what does freedom mean to you?

Speaker 1: 1:26

Living life where I'm not controlled by people and circumstances outside my life, where I'm living my life being true to myself, doing what I want to do and not worrying so much about what other people think of me, how they react to me, and being free of all that.

Speaker 3: 1:43

That's almost the antithesis of most lawyers' lives. So let's start there, because living life outside of the controls and the bounds of somebody else, most lawyers, from the time that we are in our first class in 1L to the time that we graduate, to the time that we are sworn into the bar, are told that we are beholden to the client's interests first, last and always, often above ourselves and above our family and our friends. And so how do you square that teaching with your teaching that you have to be able to live a life of your choosing, outside of the bounds of anybody else's expectations for you?

Speaker 1: 2:22

For me, that particular squaring is pretty easy. You and I are both committed to our clients. When you have a person who's injured, she's not imposed on you. You want to help her and I want to help my clients. I want to succeed in law school, so I choose to take that class and I choose to do well, so that piece really isn't hard.

Speaker 1: 2:38

What's harder is when you work with a partner who's very difficult and doesn't work the way you do and trying to square that is difficult. Having a client who's ultra-demanding and impossible to please, that's difficult, to not let that person get on your nerves. Or when business circumstances are difficult COVID strikes and in your personal injury attorney and courts close. Like, how do we manage that? And those circumstances? Other people in our lives, other circumstances can drive us crazy if we focus on them and if we resist them.

Speaker 1: 3:11

The key and I remember from our prior conversation you found a way to manage the COVID crisis where you built your firm. You didn't sit around and think, oh my God, covid courts are closed. What am I gonna do? You said, okay, it is what it is. Now what do I do about it? And to me, that's the right question. It is what it is. What do we do about it? What do we do about the lawyer who's just nasty and difficult? What do we do about the client who's too demanding and impossible to please? And then we figure out what our choices are from that.

Speaker 3: 3:41

Very much. Life doesn't happen to you, life happens for you, philosophy. And so what advice would you give to the young lawyer who's in situations where they feel like they're pounding their head against a wall over and over? Let's take the opposing counsel scenario, where you have somebody on the other side who's just obstinate. They won't answer your discovery, they won't pick up the phone and call you back, and when they do, they're mean to you. How do you go about navigating that kind of situation?

Speaker 1: 4:08

I had one and sadly I drew them on three straight cases. It's like why was I so unlucky? And it isn't easy, honestly, because even though I preach these things, practicing them isn't that easy. It's progress, not perfection. But what I try to do is not let that person annoy me, so we won't repair my calls. I send him an email. He don't answer the email. I send him a letter. He hasn't sent me discovery. I've tried three courteous ways to handle it.

Speaker 1: 4:34

I follow motion with the court. I don't get mad at him, I just do whatever the steps are required to make it happen. And when he starts yelling at me, I lower my voice. I let him yell. I ask are you finished, david? And he says yes, I'm finished. I said me I speak now, yes, you may. And then I quietly, very quietly, because the louder he is, the quieter I get. I speak my peace. And if he interrupts me I say, david, I'd interrupt you, may I please finish? And if it ends up he says no, I said we're going to discontinue this conversation. It's not productive. That would be the kinds of ways I would handle that. But what I don't do is try not to do is let that person get under my skin. He calls me a name. I call him a name. We're off to the races, because that doesn't help me and it doesn't help my client either.

Speaker 3: 5:20

I like that tactical approach of lowering your voice and changing your tonality and I don't know if you pay any attention to Chris Voss, the former FBI hostage negotiator, but that's exactly what he talks about in many of his negotiations is you can speed up the pace of the negotiation by speeding up the pace of your voice and the anxiety and the anxiousness in it, or you could switch to what he calls the FM radio DJ late night FM radio DJ voice and slow everything down, and that has the impact often of slowing down the person on the other end of the conversation. So I really like that easy tactical tip that we can use. Now. The trick is that it's hard at the moment to switch back into late night FM DJ, and so do you have a tip or a practice of pausing, and maybe it's something that you look at in your office to slow yourself down and remind yourself that, okay, this is how we have to act in order to get the person to do what we want them to do.

Speaker 1: 6:18

I like to reflect rather than react. It's very easy when someone starts pushing our buttons and we've seen it. I've been in depositions where one counsel will raise his voice, the other will, and all of a sudden they're screaming at each other and they're walking out the door. The deposition doesn't get done and you're like how immature and unprofessional was that. My focus is on reflecting before I responding. I tell my clients at depositions I'm sure you do as well Take a moment to hear the question and think about it before you rush to answer it. And that's what we should do. Is lawyers just reflect before we respond? And if I feel my blood starting to boil, if I feel my heart racing faster, that's a message to me oh, you got to take a breath and you have to reflect. There's no rush to answer. There's no rush to respond. Having said that, there are times I certainly break that rule and do react and reload before I reflect and respond, Dr Justin.

Speaker 3: 7:10

Marchegiani. And so you've done this for a long time, 40 years of experience doing a little bit of all kinds of trial work, from personal injury to estate disputes to what I think is the highest level of stress in the law, which is family law. And so talk about how you utilize those skills to navigate the family dynamic which I personally. I've been in a couple of family law courtrooms and I had no desire to ever practice in that arena, just because everything seems to be combative. So how do you bring to the table your sense of calmness and help, either with opposing counsel or with your clients in that subject matter? Dr David S.

Speaker 1: 7:47

With my clients. It's really fairly easy. My one role in representing clients in family law cases is I don't represent a jerk. I will represent the party you left a marriage. I would represent the party you had an affair and wasn't happy and is moving on, but I won't represent a jerk, and that could be either of the parties. I usually am pretty good at figuring that out in the beginning. And then I deal with a client who's full of fear and maybe anger and is scared and I love helping that person.

Speaker 1: 8:15

I've done a lot of personal injury defense work, like you've done plaintiff's work. We can't undo the accident. We can't make the plaintiff feel better. We can't make the defendant not having hit the plaintiff. We can't change that. But in family law I actually can influence the outcome. I can help my client have a successful result and is very fulfilling, and my client? I can listen to them, I can empathize.

Speaker 1: 8:37

Opposing counsel is a little bit different. I would say 75% of lawyers I deal with are like me and I say, brian, I know your client has a perspective, mine has a perspective, but let's see if we can find a solution for each of them that they can move forward, and usually you would. I could do that With the 25% of the lawyers. You have to use the approach as I said before, lowering my voice, being strongly but professionally assertive, filing a motion where needed, and family law. Very few of the cases get tried. So if you see one of those cases in court, you're seeing one of the very, very difficult cases. Difficult because either one lawyer or one party is really off, and sometimes it's a party. Some of the parties really have mental illness, maybe too strong, but some character defect that requires them to try the case because it makes no sense otherwise. It's too expensive, it's too stressful.

Speaker 3: 9:28

I think the same is often true in personal injury, like the cases that go to trial. It's because somebody's being a jerk it's either me or my client, or it's the defense lawyer or the adjuster. Now there are cases where there's a legitimate medical dispute over a surgery. But if we're in a case where we're not having legitimate medical dispute, it's just because somebody is being too hardheaded and one of the lawyers hasn't been able to explain it to their client. And now you've taken that Problem solving approach and you're doing a whole bunch of mediations, and so I'm just curious what the breakdown of your time now is between your coaching, business, mediating and handling cases for actual paying clients on the law side. Now how are you splitting your time?

Speaker 1: 10:10

so I'm downsizing from my law firm. I move from Maryland and North Carolina and I still support my firm. My son is now the primary member of it. I do our case intake, I do business development and I go back to Maryland to try some of the bigger cases, because I've tried a lot, but I would say that's maybe 25% of what I do and the rest is my podcast, my newsletter, linkedin, reaching out to lawyers and coaching them and consulting with law firms as well. So I would say the bulk is now mentoring, coaching and supporting lawyers.

Speaker 3: 10:45

So we were talking, before we got on, about your linkedin network and the way that you built that network, and one of the things you do that I don't think a lot of people are doing is immediately after you make a connection. You're reaching out to people, not, I think, with the intent to sell them anything, which is what most people get wrong about linkedin. It's here's all about me and here's what I can solve for you, but with the intent to help, and so you're offering many times free consultations not even consultation book conversations with younger lawyers about the practice of law, and you're helping lawyers either who are in depression, anxiety, substance abuse or who haven't maybe gotten there yet navigate. You know what can be a difficult legal career without many mentors at the top of it, and so do you have some success stories from conversations with lawyers on linkedin you'd be willing to share?

Speaker 1: 11:35

Sure what one. One little story which really doesn't have to do with counseling but explains why I do what I do in linkedin is to me it's the best networking site. We're all professional folks, like to network with others and we used to do it in person. So I was in something like b and I. We would meet in person.

Speaker 1: 11:52

But linkedin allows us to meet virtually lawyers all around the world and I spoke once with a financial planner In toronto and strange connection. But she said what can I do to help her, support you in any way? She said a young estates attorney in toronto. I'd love to connect with her because we could Work together. I said I'm a lawyer, mariland, I don't know any estates lawyers in toronto. And lo and behold, three days later I spoke to a young estates lawyer in toronto and I said here's someone you you could speak to because you could work together.

Speaker 1: 12:21

She never really know what connections we may have for how we may support each other. And there are many times I speak to lawyers and they're very happy, they're very fulfilled and I sometimes will have them as my guest of my podcast because how they find fulfillment is helpful. But other times I speak to folks who are very distraught and very upset, and I'll spend some time working with them and chatting with them and seeing what I can do to support them, and sometimes they Decide to engage me as their mentor and we have a continue relationship or this funny like that in in that, as you have a problem to solve I don't know Any estates lawyers in canada your mind just subconsciously starts looking for state lawyers in canada and then three days later you find one.

Speaker 3: 13:04

And I'm curious, gary, I'm looking at your website and your coaching and it doesn't include really any hard tactical. So there's nothing about how do I get more clients, how do I manage my stuff better, staff better. It's identifying purpose, setting goals, freeing yourself from past, from our past, and creating awareness of the issues that causes for us today, fighting various mindset blocks, and so I'm curious for you the role of mindset and maybe talk a little bit about your journey towards what would you call that, towards consciousness, almost right towards the awareness that the problem is many times is just in our head. It's not that we need any more information. Is that we need to get past all the brain junk that we're dealing with?

Speaker 1: 13:44

Yeah, so a little bit about my journey early in my career. I'm sober and recovery and I've been sober for two years now, which means 11 years. I practiced law as an active alcoholic and I live my life in blame, victimization, fear. Nothing was my fault. Everyone around me had character defects. I couldn't stand, even my wonderful mentor and partner, my firm, who is a great trial lawyer, great guy, but yet I'd focus on everyone's negatives. And then I started. Even if I got recovery, my focus was all about stuff, getting stuff and some of it's important you gotta pay for college etc.

Speaker 1: 14:22

But I realize it's all about the journey and being happy and being fulfilled and I realized that I was giving power of my happiness over to other people and other circumstances. Once I let other people upset me, once I worry too much about money and dollars because you chase money and you get Certain number and you're like, wow, that's was my goal. But then you want more and it never. It becomes a sickness, it becomes its own addiction and I found that stuff never makes me happy and what happiness comes from is being true to myself and really doing something I find fulfilling. And for me, the greatest happiness I find is when I'm a service to someone else could be our client. I'm sure you've had some amazing results for your clients and it must be. There's a financial piece for you. You get a big verdict, you get a big Payday. But probably more powerful to you is Look what I accomplished from my client, look how I use my skills to be of service to her and help her, and that's where I find the greatest fulfillment today.

Speaker 3: 15:19

Especially after the third or the fourth big verdict and big payday. Right, there's only so many times you can hit that dopamine button before it just stops working. And so I'm curious for you, because I've noticed that a theme in a lot of your discussion on LinkedIn and during this conversation has been in giving back, and so I'm curious whether that's a muscle that you've learned to flex in the last half of your career or if that's something that you've always been good at.

Speaker 1: 15:44

I wasn't bad at it before, but it was always conditional. Ryan, I'd be glad to do something for you, but would you do this for me? The thing. And now it's unconditional and it's truly fulfilling and I think the more we give without an expectation of return, maybe you have someone you help out in a case where the financial rewards for you aren't that great. You don't need them, because this is a person who needs your skill and talent and you're happy to serve that client and help her, even though the payoff to you isn't that fantastic and service really is. When I have a day when I'm really self-absorbed and selfish and cranky, invariably it happens where someone will reach out to me and say, can you help me with something? And I lose myself in the pain of that other person where I can be of service. So it is something I've developed and it can be very freeing to focus on being of service to other people. Instead of getting what I want, I focus on wanting what I have.

Speaker 3: 17:03

So what advice would you give to the young lawyer who's at a firm where maybe they don't have control over the kinds of clients that they're taking on and maybe they have pro bono opportunities where they can see true fulfillment for individuals and not corporations, but they don't have very many of those. What advice? And then also, this young lawyer of course has a mountain of student loan debt and so they have maybe limited options to get outside of that firm. What advice would you give that lawyer for getting to the place that you just talked about?

Speaker 1: 17:33

I guess I would have two suggestions. The first is, with whatever their area of practice is, don't focus so much on how much work I have to do, how many hours I have to build. Focus on the client. We're there to serve a client and, whatever arena it is, we can have a passion for helping our client. If it's setting up a corporation, getting them brand protection, whatever it is, focus on what you accomplish for your client and if that's not enough, then find something outside of work. Find some charity where you find fulfillment and support, whatever that might be, and do that on the weekends or in the evenings. Some social groups, some community organization helping disabled children, being a mentor to a younger inner city youth whatever finds your passion.

Speaker 3: 18:16

I'll talk a little bit about this. But lawyers at an off-the-charts rate especially compared to other professions, are depressed, anxious, substance abusers. Divorce rate is very high. I'm curious whether you think that's a cause or an effect. In other words, does the high achieving I'd she meant that it takes to get through college and get through law school and get one of these jobs? Does that attract people that are more naturally inclined to those things? Or do we get out and we don't have the expectation, doesn't meet reality of being a lawyer and then it's causing that depression, anxiety, substance abuse.

Speaker 1: 18:53

I guess I'm not really smart enough to answer that, but my opinion is that our practice and law school in our practice cause those problems. Law school is so competitive. We went to college, we got straight A's, we were the star of the college. We go to law school with all the other stars of all the other colleges and we're graded on a curve where only 10% of us got A's, where we used to all get A's, and all of a sudden we feel pressure and if we're in the bottom half the class we can't get the job we want, but in the top 10% we do. So it starts there. And then we go to a firm where we might be competing with our buddies, so there can be certain ones of us who get partners or raises or bonuses.

Speaker 1: 19:30

So I think it's really caused by the pressures of our practice and I think for those who work in the hourly environment, the hourly pressures can be dehumanizing, can be frustrating. So those are really the causes and it is really difficult. And then we have the expectations. I was so excited to be a lawyer. My family came and celebrated on the lawyer and then five years later, you're like what happened? This isn't what I thought it would be.

Speaker 3: 19:52

Forget about the competition aspect of law school. So, as you were talking, I was remembering a story. So I went to school at the tail end of books they still. My first year taught us how to look things up in a book in the library, even though you had Lexis, nexus and Westlaw. But we would hear stories about people taking pages or taking the little the reporter update out of the back of the book during a research project so that other people couldn't find it. And I'd forgotten all about that level of competition until we got here. And you're exactly right. The problem is we all got straight A's and then we said, okay, now you're on a curve.

Speaker 1: 20:24

Now, not everybody. High school we love the curve because we were stars. But when you're with all the other stars, a curve is a curse.

Speaker 3: 20:32

Yeah, harder and harder. I'm curious and I have this question about how much of this really is in our head, and I'll tee it up with a situation that a friend of mine and I promise I'm not asking for me, this actually is a friend of mine is going through. He's overwhelmed, overworked, his partner is having health problems, partner has just gone in for surgery and now the partner's caseload has become my friend's caseload. He says what do I do? I need to go hire somebody else. And my question was why do you need to do that? Why don't you just shed the bottom 20, 25% of the portfolio, elevate he's in an injury practice, elevate your effective hourly rate and move on?

Speaker 3: 21:12

And the response that I got was because my partner took all these crappy cases and we've spent all this money. Now we've got to get it back. And I'm like dude, I tried to give you the solution, what I think is the solution, and I feel like you're not trying to help me solve the problem. And so how many times do you go through that in your coaching practice, where you're like here's the answer that you could probably get to, but all you're doing is saying no to the solutions that are coming up. That are possibilities for you.

Speaker 1: 21:38

It certainly happens some. It happens more with folks who don't choose to be my client. Like I'm talking to someone and I give advice, as you're giving advice, and he's saying, no, that doesn't work for me and I certainly had that. But folks who choose to my client are saying I'm vulnerable, I'm in trouble, I need your help, I don't run their life. But I do give them helpful advice, but I also give them support and encouragement. So it happens less with my clients than it does with folks outside who are asking for free advice. If you will, like your friend was asking for free advice because that was very good advice that you gave him. Particularly in injury practice, the $500,000 case is much more productive than the $10,000 case because often the amount of time is not proportional to the rewards. So one can only grow when they open their minds to helpful advice from other people, whether it's a hired mentor or a good friend, like you were to your colleague.

Speaker 3: 22:33

How are people finding you most frequently now?

Speaker 1: 22:36

Through LinkedIn, through my podcast, through my newsletter. I find now when I speak to someone for the first time, they know me, they've heard my voice. Once a month I do an hourly workshop, linkedin live. So I'm doing one. I've done them on burnout, I've done them on managing stress and one I had 563 sign up to attend. Not all of them, of course, attend attend on LinkedIn, but they're all ones who had that available to them to learn. So I find that now people know who I am and they know where to find me. I send an email out to folks I've connected with.

Speaker 1: 23:12

I just I like being of service and so often when we change what we focus on, we can change our happiness. When we focus on how difficult our workload is, how demanding our partner is, how challenging our client is, how nasty other lawyers we feel, all those things. But if we focus on the gifts in our life, I'm making pretty nice money, I'm with a pretty good firm, I like the area in which I practice, I have a nice family, I have three wonderful kids, I get to see their soccer and baseball games this weekend. We change, we focus on, we're much happier.

Speaker 3: 23:44

So much in what you just said that I think comes back to many of us wind up with a job criteria that we enjoy by first identifying all the things that we don't like. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to work with this kind of client anymore, I don't want to work with this kind of boss or this kind of assistant anymore, and so, instead of thinking about it the other way around, like what are the criteria of the clients, my best clients, what are the criteria that my best staff all has in common, and so I'm curious if you have thoughts about approaching it from the do not do versus the do list.

Speaker 1: 24:19

I usually focus from the do and I think the most important thing is either works as long as we focus on it. Sure, I think so many of us get out of law school. We got law school debt. We take the highest paying job offer we get, which usually has the most prestige, because we really need the money to pay back our loan and we haven't really analyzed what do we want. So if you worked in a big firm, you wouldn't have the flexibility and independence autonomy you have now, for example, and people haven't really analyzed what kind of work do I want to do? What size firm do I want to do? How much freedom and autonomy do I want? How much money do I need to make? Where do I want to work? And they haven't really gone through that process. And it doesn't matter a whole lot if you say this is what I don't want or this is what I do. What matters is that we do that and often we're just sitting on the wrong seat in the bus.

Speaker 3: 25:07

That's a really important key. I want to come back to that one, but do you have a resource either a book or a podcast where because I think many people struggle with this I don't have the life I want and I don't even know where to start in planning out what the life I want looks like?

Speaker 1: 25:24

Yeah, I did a newsletter on this exact topic of aligning our practice with our values and I'm happy to share it with you and you can put it in the show notes if you wish, because I talk about the process for us to figure out what do we want to do and then align ourself with that practice. So I've talked with a couple of attorneys who worked in firms and they didn't like it, so they chose either. For example, two of them I know went into government employment. It's very different. You don't have to worry about making money, you have a less burdensome hours, you make less money, but they really enjoy what they're doing. They enjoy being a lawyer in that environment. So it's a matter of finding what we really want, and often we don't find it until we're somewhere like this, isn't it? I don't like this.

Speaker 3: 26:07

So I want to come back to your note about the right seat on the bus, because what occurs to me is that many of us we're looking for a job, we're looking at what's on Indeed or whatever job board, and then we're selecting the job that has been posted by somebody else for us and we don't identify here's really what I want and here's what would be the perfect seat on the bus for me, and then proactively go and try to find that, and that's how you end up in somebody else's reality and not your own. So do you have thoughts on how to find the right seat on the bus for you?

Speaker 1: 26:36

As I said, I think the key is to really figure out what's important to you. If you listed 10 or 12 criteria for a job location, area, practice, etc. Which ones are most important to you and what kind of job fits with that, it's a different experience working in a smaller firm like yours instead of one of the biggest firms in Richmond. It's a very different work experience and both may not work for everyone. And then sometimes you can connect actually with someone who specializes you in coaching how to find the right job, and I connect with some of those on LinkedIn. Some have been guests on my podcast. They really help you to figure out where you want to be and how do we find that job.

Speaker 3: 27:15

I'm going to ask you as we wrap up here, there are dozens, maybe hundreds of coaches, four lawyers on LinkedIn, and you're not the right coach for everybody and you don't want to coach everybody. How would somebody who's looking for some guidance go about identifying the right coach for them?

Speaker 1: 27:34

I know, when I have family law clients call me in a prospective call and they say, what's your rate and how long will this take, I said, look, the most important thing for you is finding the right fit. Find the lawyer who you feel comfortable with, and my advice would be the same here Find the coach who listens to you the way you want to be listened to, who has the experience level, has the track record. The coach who has what you want. And connect with that person.

Speaker 1: 28:01

And it may not be me at all, and that is just fine, because there are many more lawyers who need coaches than there are coaches to serve them and there are many different styles, different ages, different genders. So find the person who you like, and that's part of the reason I do the podcast. People know who I am, they know what my philosophy is, they know how I speak, and other coaches have podcasts and any coach would give a free consultation. See if that's a person who you connect with, who gives you what you want and who will listen to you and care about you the way you want.

Speaker 3: 28:34

Darry, I want to thank you for being on the show today, but also for what you're doing for the profession, because I don't think that there are many people who have ridden off into the sunset the way that you have, who then can come back and say let me help you with all of the issues that I suffered with when I was in your position. So thank you for doing that on your podcast and on LinkedIn. The podcast is the free lawyer, linkedin is just Gary Myles. Where else do you want to direct people?

Speaker 1: 29:00

My website is garymylesnet, very easy to find and there's more information about me and what I do there.

Speaker 3: 29:07

Thank you, Gary.

Speaker 1: 29:08

Brian, thank you. I was really pleased to be on your podcast and I honor you for not only your service your clients, but to your staff. I love how you have built an environment where you help all of your staff be as successful as they want to be in their roles. I appreciate that.