Balancing Law School with Life: Ali Rice and Financial Wisdom for Aspiring Public Sector Lawyers

Discover the real-life challenges and triumphs of a law student on the brink of shaping her future. Ali Rice from Western New England University School of Law opens up about her journey through the legal landscape, detailing the intricacies of switching from evening to full-time day classes, and how she balances a demanding academic schedule with her job and passion for skiing. Her candid narrative provides a firsthand account of the commitment required to thrive in law school, and her aspirations to impact the criminal justice system as either a prosecutor or public defender. If you're curious about the life of a law student or seeking inspiration for your own educational endeavors, Ali's story is one you won't want to miss.

Then, we shift gears to tackle the art of financial acumen for young professionals. As Ali aspires to serve in the public sector, we delve into savvy financial strategies that prioritize self-investment and skill enhancement over mere savings. Gain valuable insight on how to balance aspirations for high income with the quest for a fulfilling career, and understand the unique financial pathways available to those dedicated to public service. Whether you're striving to make a difference, or simply aiming to cultivate a work-life balance that resonates with your values, this episode offers a wealth of knowledge and motivation to guide you on your path. Join the conversation with us and Ali, and take away actionable advice that could redefine your professional journey.

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Brian Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury lawyer. He is passionate about living a life of his own design and looking for answers to solutions outside of the legal field. This podcast is his effort to share that passion with others.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome back to the show. Today I have another law student guest with me, ali Rice, who's just finished her first semester of second year at Western New England University School of Law up in Massachusetts, and we were talking before we got on. Small school only looks like 80 people per year, which is a totally different experience than I had in college and then in law school. So, ali, welcome to the show. I'd love to get your perspective on that. How are you?

Speaker 2: 0:27

Thank you, I'm pretty well. How are you?

Speaker 1: 0:29

I'm great, thank you. So small school. I'm just curious like one year most schools would my school divided up into three different sections. Was everybody in the same section, or was it were you at least cut in half?

Speaker 2: 0:44

Everybody was in the same section for the larger classes, depending on if you were an evening student or a night student, and then for like lawyering skills, which is a smaller class we'd have about probably no more than maybe 10 or 15. So the lawyering skills is a smaller class one year but definitely upwards, probably 200 in like con law property towards civil procedure.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Those classes yeah, I'm a student or are you an evening night student?

Speaker 2: 1:09

I am full time day. I started off as evening and it wasn't the life for me and I decided I need to just get it all done and nerd out in three years and I financially be able to do it thanks to support from my mom. So I took that big step.

Speaker 1: 1:24

So were you then behind or were you in the evening classes? You were taking a full course load in the fall.

Speaker 2: 1:30

I was behind one credit, one credit.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Okay, okay, so not bad. And then you made that up and now you're on. Now you're on track, okay, cool. And coming into your second semester, second year, what are you looking to learn and what skills are you looking to develop this year?

Speaker 2: 1:45

That's a great question. My goal through law school is to pass the bar, so I'm not focusing on concentrations or any like criminal law or business concentration. So I'm taking some of the so mandatory classes like evidence, professional responsibility and besorgs. But I'm really looking forward to other classes. I'm taking a administrative and legislative policy, a criminal immigration simulation which the description says pairs well for clerkships, and those are taught by my. Those last two classes are taught by my professor, who I loved having this semester, so I'm really excited for that. So it's an array of classes just like, and then dipping my toes in some other other ones, other subjects, to see how I like those.

Speaker 2: 2:27

I think I want to be a prosecutor. When my friends always crack up, they're like we saw that come in forever ago. Yeah, I will see. I like how it is in canada kit, from what I've heard, or federal public defender or public defender. So one of one of those, I guess. Different side of the eye, but people I've pulled that lawyers go back and forth. Some are to be a prosecutor and then be a public defender and vice versa, so that's not out of ordinary.

Speaker 1: 2:50

But exclusively focusing criminal law. You think?

Speaker 2: 2:53

Oh yeah, I love it. That first year I was like I haven't really found something and I'm like so nerdy about I took to criminal law and I was the one class that I got giddy while studying, which never happens Like I enjoy studying, but I would just get so happy studying from law. So I think that's where I've helped me in.

Speaker 1: 3:11

I'm gonna end up Example of something in criminal law that you would get getty over.

Speaker 2: 3:16

I think probably watching this is maybe something so cliche, but watching some criminal shows and being like, oh, that's wrong, oh, that's correct, or that's wrong, or that's correct.

Speaker 2: 3:29

Or the other day I was talking with I was at a work party and I said, well, when I learned this a few years ago it was correct, so I'm not sure if it's still correct. I said you get arrested on a Friday, you have to actually stay in jail until Monday because the judges don't go into court for like a raid man or whatnot. And everybody was joking and like, oh, ali, so you're telling us that we can get arrested Monday from Thursday and we'll be fine. And I was like that's not what I was saying. But yeah, it's so just and I think a lot of the civil rights as well, and learning more about what this actually means and in applying it to real life. There are a lot of real life applications in the news that my professor would bring into her lessons in class, which I thought was really great, no matter what class it is, when the professor can bring that real life application in is really helpful.

Speaker 1: 4:15

Are you working right now also?

Speaker 2: 4:17

I am working part time. Yes, I teach skiing. I work for a coffee shop as well. I do their liveries and then I work on campus in the admissions office. So a few part time jobs, yes.

Speaker 1: 4:28

So give me a sense of, like, how many hours a week you're devoting to those two or three part time jobs and then to studying and then to you must also ski on the side just for fun, but give me a sense of what your average week looks like Average week.

Speaker 2: 4:43

I work four hours two to four hours in the admissions office, so that's nice, and the delivery job for the coffee shop. I work solely on Fridays, which is really nice, and that's started seven a little bit before hopefully end by two with the latest, and then skiing is all day Saturdays, on the weekends. So during reminder break between the fall and the spring semesters I'll try to ski elsewhere if I can afford it. But mostly I just ski on Saturdays because I get paid to do what I love and so I ski all day and I love the physical jobs too. So delivering coffee is a physical job and skiing and so that really helps me throughout the week with studying.

Speaker 1: 5:24

Have you? Did you work last summer?

Speaker 2: 5:26

I did, yes, part time. I was working at the admissions office and the coffee shop job. That's when I started with the coffee shop.

Speaker 1: 5:32

Okay, and what do job prospects look like for this summer?

Speaker 2: 5:36

I've been applying nonprofit and some government internships as well. So we'll see that. I got her back from one so far who said they'll let me know in the next steps in the next three to four weeks. So that's good because that means they at least will there will be some next steps. So definitely looking in the Connecticut area because that's where I'm from and anything that really I can get in the government area or nonprofit I think would be great.

Speaker 1: 6:01

The job path, at least for either a public defender or a criminal prosecutor, seems to me to be fairly straightforward right, secure an internship, probably after your two year, maybe do an externship or a clinic three L year. And then it strikes me that most of those jobs you find because you have a connection with somebody in the county or the state where you ultimately go and work. Do you think that I'm right about that?

Speaker 2: 6:27

Yeah, I think so. Yes, I think you are right about that. My path is a little different. I'd rather take a bunch of classes if I'm going to go into all this debt paying for law school. I also worked for the Connecticut judicial branch for three years in the Hartford family court and in the superior court of operations. So I have that and I think that background helps me not be as nervous about getting a job, because I have those connections already. Western New England is a really big feeder school for the Connecticut judicial branch. I worked with tons of alumna from Western New England School of Law. I think that alone helps. But yes, having those connections does help. But I've also been extremely humble in that it doesn't. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you have those connections because another applicant can be picked over you. So that's been a big learning experience for me.

Speaker 1: 7:14

You're not the only one that has connections. So let me just touch on something that you just said, because I felt the exact same way, like I'm paying all this money for school, what I should do is go to courses with professors and learn from them, and I think that was wrong. I didn't do any externships or any clinics because I was like, why am I gonna go volunteer my time and pay for three credit hours? But in hindsight that was a mistake, either for connections or for real boots on the ground experience, which it sounds like you had for three years and I didn't have coming into law school and coming out of law school. But I would just suggest that you give some thought to that.

Speaker 1: 7:50

Number one is, there's a lot of learning that takes place outside of the classroom and I think that it's silly that your school is charging you for the three credit hours that you're gonna be interning somewhere. But I would question, like whether the best use of your time is in a classroom learning from a professor who in many cases, hasn't actually practiced or hasn't practiced in a long time, versus getting boots on the ground experience in a public defender's office or in a Commonwealth Attorneys Office or something like that. So I would give some thought to that. Okay, are you doing moot court or journal or anything like that?

Speaker 2: 8:25

I am not this year but I'm hoping next year that I will be selected from moot court. I am gonna be volunteering as like a mock judge to help the current moot court teams prep for arguments. But I do learn best through experience. You make a good point about keeping an open mind. Despite my past experience, I do appreciate that and I will keep it open mind. But I am focusing at least a lot on those experiential learning courses where you have to act out or meet with, do simulations and whatnot. But I will keep my mind open for internships during the semester as well. So thank you.

Speaker 1: 8:59

All right. Before we jumped on, I said what do you wanna talk about? And you said debt, money management and investing. Hit me with that. Where do you wanna go with that?

Speaker 2: 9:07

I think it can be hard to invest or think about investing a law student because, especially a full-time student and I learned a lot more about that and, interestingly enough, trust in the States this past semester, which I didn't think I was gonna I just it was a very interesting part of the course and got me thinking more and just ways to save. I'm big on cash back. I use Recoup10. So I have, you can earn cash back and you get checks every few months by using different websites. I don't know how it works, but I get money in the bank account, so that works for me. And, of course, with the Supreme Court saying that Biden, president Biden could not forgive certain loans, that was a bit of a bummer For me personally, especially wanting to go back into public interest work and government work, so figuring out the best way to invest and live and enjoy life but also pay my debt as I'm legally required to.

Speaker 1: 10:06

And not have to operate as a lawyer and then also teaching skiing on the weekend because you have to right, if you want to do that, awesome. But you certainly don't wanna go through law school, graduate, pass the bar and need a second job, and so the first thing I would be thinking about is and it's probably widely available data it's like in the counties where you're looking for these public sector jobs what are they paying? And then what does it cost you?

Speaker 2: 10:33

to live there.

Speaker 1: 10:34

And then you can just do math on. Is that a sustainable path for me, or is it not? Knowing what your debt load is going to be, knowing what rent is gonna be near that courthouse, and then you have a year and a half of runway now to figure out. Does the math or does it not? The investing the student debt loan part is interesting in the public sector because you do still have that ability to have it forgiven with X number of jobs or X number of years working in the public sector, and it's been a long time since I was even thinking about it. But what is it? 10 years of public sector work and then they forgive the remaining debt? Is that right?

Speaker 2: 11:12

Yes, it's 10 years.

Speaker 1: 11:14

Yeah, and the last time I heard about that program it was because, like only 8% or something of the people who had actually gone through the 10 years of working for the public sector were then successful in getting it forgiven. Is that still the case, or has that been fixed?

Speaker 2: 11:31

Under President Biden it's being fixed, which makes me hopeful, but of course when presidents change, that can change. Like he recognized that a lot of people who qualify should have been forgiven and so he went back and made sure that he processed and so that's helped. So I'm trying to keep that in the back of my mind, but I'm hoping that it does continue to get better in that regard.

Speaker 1: 11:51

And then the part about the public sector is. The advice that I was going to give you on investing is don't, in your first couple of years of your career, because there's so much, there's so much financial advice centered around save as much as you can. Don't spend money on $5 coffees and reduce your expenses. The thing is, you can only reduce your expenses to zero, but your income you can increase to whatever you want if you're not in the public sector, and so my advice to most young people getting out would be something along the lines of before you go, maxing out your 401k, max out your investment in yourself to hone your skill set so that you can make more money. Because if you put $18,000 in your 401k next year and it does 10% return, you have almost $20,000, right, but you can't touch it until you're 65. But if you took half of that and you put it in a skill building course and you went and learned how to acquire clients or you learned how to try cases better, you probably in the next year would earn more than $20,000 back. Right, I think you would at least get a 2x or a y. Now it's different in the public sector, because your earning capacity is limited right. Being a great lawyer, you're still on, whatever the band for prosecutor.

Speaker 1: 13:14

Number two is, and so I do think that you have to think a little bit more carefully about how you invest, whether it's in real estate, flipping houses or some kind of stuff that you buy at the dollar store and then you flip on Amazon.

Speaker 1: 13:31

There's plenty of YouTube channels and things out there that will teach you that. My sense is, though, all of those are like small needle movers with the public sector job, and so the thing I would think about is there a way to serve the public sector but be making private sector money? If the concern is really, I have this huge debt load and the math doesn't make sense, is there a way that I can serve that clientele in a way that I can be also very well paid for it? I haven't given a lot of thought to what that would look like, but number one is understanding the numbers, understanding what's the salary for public defender or for a prosecutor job, and then just what does it cost to live in Connecticut or Western Massachusetts, and I don't know, I don't know. Are those high cost of living compared to the rest of the US areas?

Speaker 2: 14:17

Connecticut? Yes, western Mass, I'm not so sure, but the good, one unique part of my situation is that my boyfriend already has a house and his health insurance is a lot cheaper like thousands cheaper than what I was paying when I was working full time. So I know that will help a lot with how much I can save and whatnot and put towards loans and put towards savings or investing elsewhere. So that will be good.

Speaker 1: 14:42

And to me, the goal is not to work six and a half or seven days, it's not to fill up all of our time with work, because we need the work to sustain the lifestyle. Because, whatever lifestyle Now, you have either zero days or only half a day right when you're not out of the office and working.

Speaker 2: 15:00

Yeah, that's a good point. That's it. That's a very good point about the. I'm usually used to working six days because I've been teaching skiing for 14 years and so.

Speaker 2: 15:08

I've always been in school or works, so it was very tiring the first time I was working full-time and skiing. That was very exhausting. My boyfriend he works Half of Saturdays, usually with his job. He's an athletic trainer, so he has to. It's also the life that he's used to as well, but it definitely. I guess it can be hard but it can be worth it. To you saying earlier, do I enjoy teaching skiing and that's what I want to keep doing, or do I have to For the money, which is very good perspective that I will have to consider once I'm working full-time.

Speaker 1: 15:39

That's what I would draw this on first, and that's what I think most lawyers get backwards is we chase more dollars and more dollars without thinking about who. What is it that I actually want do? Yeah, like I heard the analogy that having a big-law job Billing at 2,000 hours a year is really it's having two jobs. So of course they're paying you what they're paying you because you're working 70 or 80 hours a week. Figuring out number one, what is it that I actually want to do with my time on this planet, because it's finite? And then what do I need to do? To work to put value into the world, yes, but also to earn the money to Sustain the life and have the life that I want to have outside of the whatever 40 or 50 hours You're dedicating your job, and it's great when those things line up. They don't always line up and it's a recipe for burnout if they don't line up. And then you're chasing other hours outside of your primary job to To fill the gap.

Speaker 2: 17:00

Yeah, you're reminding me of a lot of the mindset that I had Before I was in law school and because I wasn't making a ton of money at all working my first two years for the judicial branch. But I loved it and thankfully again being able to live at home was a Just a huge help, like not having to pay rent at least I first pay for other things for myself, but not having to pay exorbitant rent rental fees is helped a lot. But I was happy. I said I would rather make less and enjoy my job, then make more and be miserable. And I first I was just star struck with all these first-year associate salaries.

Speaker 2: 17:36

I was talking my boyfriend, I was like 250 thousand dollars. That's insane. But then I saw again LinkedIn post once about the math and it's you're basically you. Like you said, it's two jobs and that's just not mentally worth it for me. For some people it is for sure, but for me that's not. And so, going back to remember, I would rather make the last and that doesn't force myself to work the lowest paying job. Of course not, but I would rather make less and be happy with what I'm doing and that also a lot more with my faith as a Christian to like helping the people and taking in that money, but helping is what really is where my heart is. So thanks for that reminder.

Speaker 1: 18:12

So all of that really starts with identifying, first, what are the things that I would do if somebody wasn't even paying me to do it right, if I didn't have to worry about money, if I didn't have to make rent, what would I be doing? That would be putting value into the world. And okay, now, now that I have that list of things, now that I have that narrative, like, can I find a job that aligns with that and also makes makes the ends meet? Because that's it's a requirement and Most lawyers never Think about that happiness component. Exactly what you said about I would take less money to be more happy or take less money To be more free, is the way that most of us I think. If you get down to it, really what creates happiness is the freedom to do what you want when you want on your time. Yeah, it's not that. Okay, I make more money, I can buy more things and the things will make me happy. It's the freedom to have the optionality to do that.

Speaker 1: 19:03

And a lot of people get stuck in All right, high-paying job and then I, every year, I get an increase in my salary and what happens is my lifestyle costs increase Rather than using that increase in the salary or whatever bonus to pay down the debt, to set yourself up with a nice secure base so that you have the optionality when it's not fun anymore to go and do anything else right? So I don't know what the actionable thing from that is except make the list of the things that actually make you happy and let's figure out is there anything in the private sector where you could help people, where you could make great money Without, without necessarily committing and I don't want to talk you out a prosecutor or public defender? But is it even an option to increase the elasticity of what you would ever make as a salary, right, by being a great private sector lawyer and also helping people? I don't know. I would start with making that list of what really makes Allie happy. What kind of things fulfill you and make you want to get up on Monday and go to work, because the worst thing that happens is every Sunday you hate your job and you look forward to Friday afternoon.

Speaker 2: 20:07

Yes, yeah, just full of you. This is full of great advice. Thank you, brian. And thinking about that the more I when I was thinking about what could I do in private sector, etc. I know a lot of professors who have worked in private sector and then they went into teaching. Or there are some firms, especially in the Hartford Connecticut area and down by New York City, who will hire former prosecutors, former public defenders and have them work in like government areas of the firm.

Speaker 2: 20:38

So I have thought of that further into the future and what that could look like as well, because there are a lot of private firms that are starting to do more good and really pushing those pro bono hours and whatnot, and I think that's really great for society as well. But I'm more of a. I'm a change maker. I want to change the way things are done. So I feel like that can be best done directly through the private sector and maybe I will be humbled and my mind will change once I'm there and I there will be other opportunities in other areas. So, yeah, what?

Speaker 1: 21:11

is the change that you want to make.

Speaker 2: 21:13

I think that less people should be in jail. I think that the states could save tons and tons of money actually helping people, rehabilitating them. And of course, my ideology was a little shaken when a form when a recent Western New England alum came to campus and she's a prosecutor or a state's attorney in Connecticut and she said I had to send my fur, like I had to send someone to jail for the first time, because they repeatedly would do this and like sometimes that's the only option. But I think that if we actually take the time as prosecutors, public defenders, to find who the real criminal is and work and spend that extra money really being thorough in the case, there'll be less appeals, there will be less people in jail and you can actually save a ton of money and taxpayer money and help still help people at the same time. So that's my ideology. I don't know if that's realistic.

Speaker 1: 22:10

How will justice reform come to New England?

Speaker 2: 22:12

Can you repeat that?

Speaker 1: 22:13

Yeah, so has. That has criminal justice reform and these we call them in Virginia like reform prosecutors. Right, have they actually arrived in New England?

Speaker 2: 22:23

Yeah, in Connecticut.

Speaker 1: 22:24

Yes, at the state's attorney's office, and that is why I was inspired recently to be in turn, hopefully, and become a it's been a disaster in Virginia, in Northern Virginia, actually, especially for small businesses, because they've announced that we're just going to stop prosecuting shoplifters and so people are now running into stores and running out with stuff Spin. It's been interesting. If you look, if you Google Fairfax County Prosecutor. There's a big effort to remove him at one point last year because his what he did is he fired all the people that had actual prosecution experience and he hired all these reformed people that didn't have much experience. And there's a lot of victims' families that have been very unhappy with the results because the cases haven't been handled properly. So I think, done I'm with you If you were jails. It's good for everybody, good for taxpayers. You go to jail for five years and you come back and you have a really hard time re-entering society and being a productive member. I think in practice it's been really a hard go in most localities that have instituted that.

Speaker 2: 23:35

And why?

Speaker 1: 23:36

I don't know. I haven't followed it closely enough. I just know in Northern Virginia the results have not been super awesome.

Speaker 2: 23:42

Yeah, I don't know why you would choose to not prosecute any shoplifter. That's not what it's like in Connecticut, it's best of my knowledge. Let's try to help people and if they can't, it's three strikes you're out. But it's more than that. That logic three strikes you're out has not had a good impact on society either. And of course, you do have to consider victims and victims' families and what they want as well. So that's just. It seems like there's a lot of taxpayer going to good use there.

Speaker 1: 24:09

Totally fair. There is now a Veterans Mental Health docket, there is a Drug Court docket in Fairfax, both of which were reform initiatives and both of which have been real successes. And maybe it's just there's negative headlines, and that happens in every election cycle. I don't I'm not a criminal lawyer, I don't play one on TV, I don't pretend to follow it closely enough, but I do know that it's been challenging here.

Speaker 2: 24:33

Like anything new and anything reformed too. But hopefully they the prosecutor works out and rehires those other ones, because I don't know why you would fire the really good prosecutors.

Speaker 1: 24:45

Yeah, the clean house, which I think is what happens when new coaches come in right. New coach comes into the football team, whatever. I'm not an expert in that area, I just know the headlines that I've seen. Anyway, off the topic, before I thought we would end up. What else can I help you with?

Speaker 2: 25:01

I think you've been great help so far, unless there's any unsolicited advice that you would like to give me that comes to mind.

Speaker 1: 25:07

I've got all kinds of I have all kinds of unsolicited advice. I don't know that it would be helpful to you and I don't like to. My whole thing is there's way too many people who want to give advice without understanding the goal of where that person ultimately is receiving it ultimately wants to go. I think it's terribly unfair to the person and it's foolish to give it out. I think you're on the right track. I love that you are entering the law as a changemaker. I hope it doesn't get beaten out of you in your first couple of years of public service. My hope for you is that you find the right group of people to associate with and continue on the path, because the world needs more people that are coming into this profession and want to make a change. I'm really happy to have made this connection and I'm looking forward to seeing what you're going to do in the future.

Speaker 2: 25:56

Yes, thank you. I'm glad we're connected on LinkedIn. That's how I've been able to make a lot of new connections and just the world. That app is great. It's been so helpful. Thank you for that. Thank you for this opportunity to chat and learn a lot from you.

Speaker 1: 26:10

Thank you for coming on. Where can people find you? Maybe it's just Allie Rice on LinkedIn, but if there's somewhere else that you want to direct people, let me give you that opportunity.

Speaker 2: 26:18

Yeah, LinkedIn is great book they can reach out to. Although I'm a little quieter about my opinions, these days on Facebook, but LinkedIn is wonderful. They can reach out. It's Allie and then Alexandra Rice. If they're connected to you, then it will be a real connection.

Speaker 1: 26:36

Actual public sector job advice. If you have a job that you're looking to hire somebody into, reach out to Allie. You disagree with everything that I said about that sector. Reach out to Allie. I'm not the expert. I'm just trying to help as many people as we can here.

Speaker 2: 26:52

Yes, thank you, thank you.