Life Beyond the Briefs
At Life Beyond the Briefs we help lawyers like you become less busy, make more money, and spend more time doing what they want instead of what they have to. Brian brings you guests from all walks of life are living a life of their own design and are ready to share actionable tips for how you can begin to live your own dream life.
Life Beyond the Briefs
Can a Family Law Firm Be Human, Scalable, and Profitable All at Once? | Jonathan Merel
What happens when a burned-out litigator walks away from the courtroom—not to retire, but to build something better?
In this episode, Brian Glass sits down with Chicago-based attorney Jonathan Merel, who left a toxic law firm with no business plan, a second baby on the way, and a recession looming—just to prove he could build something human, modern, and meaningful. Sixteen years later, he leads a thriving 20-attorney practice that's redefining what family law can look like.
Jonathan shares the exact mindset shifts that took him from solo grinder to law firm CEO, how hiring a divorce coach transformed his client experience, and why emotional burnout is the silent killer in legal careers. From talent retention and marketing mistakes to automation, AI hesitations, and managing client expectations, this conversation pulls back the curtain on what it really takes to scale with soul.
If you’ve ever felt torn between practicing law and building a business—or wondered if it’s possible to grow without selling your sanity—this episode is your permission slip to think bigger.
To learn more about Jonathan or connect with his firm, visit www.merelfamilylaw.com or find him on LinkedIn: Jonathan Merel
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Brian Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury lawyer in Fairfax, Virginia. He is passionate about living a life of his own design and looking for answers to solutions outside of the legal field. This podcast is his effort to share that passion with others.
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The idea of divorce coaches became more prevalent. She's a certified divorce coach, she's got training in domestic violence and I said let's do this and kind of change the way people think of family law firms and I don't know of any other firms anywhere that really have this built into their firm and it's been a huge hit. A lot of our clients have met with her. They of course don't have to, but they love it. You get clients who are victims of domestic violence or just really struggling with the divorce and the end of their marriage, or she's great to have on the team to pass off. She's great for the attorneys because you know we allow the clients to kind of go to her to deal with the emotional stuff which she's better prepared to deal with than us, and then obviously it's great for the clients too. So it's a win-win. I mean, she's a great intermediary between attorney and client. The clients love talking to her and it's definitely something new to the industry, but I think it'll catch on.
Speaker 2:I really do, hey friends, welcome back to Life Beyond the Briefs, the podcast where we talk about building a law practice and a life you don't need a vacation from. Here's the question Can you grow a law firm that actually puts people first your clients, your team and yourself and still make it wildly profitable? Most lawyers are either grinding in the courtroom or drowning in management, but today's guest figured out how to step back, scale up and build something radically different. Jonathan Merrill is a Chicago-based family law powerhouse who launched his firm during the recession with no plan, no safety net and a newborn on the way. Fast forward to today. He leads a 20 attorney firm that's rethinking everything from client communication to emotional support.
Speaker 2:In this episode, we talk about the shift from lawyer to leader, hiring a divorce coach, navigating burnout and whether AI belongs anywhere near your legal work. If you've ever felt torn between being a great lawyer and being a great business owner, this one's going to hit home. Let's dive in. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. Today I'm talking with Jonathan Merrill. Jonathan is a Chicago-based family law practitioner. He's grown an amazing firm and he's done a great job of branding himself, and if you're watching this on video, you see his name in no fewer than one, two, three, four, five places.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I don't know where that came from Totally subtle. That's awesome, Jonathan. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Brian, Happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Hey man, so we were talking, before we got on, about this firm that you've grown, and I think you said almost 20 lawyers and 10 or so team members. We'll talk about the divisional labor in the law practice, but you've done this in a remarkable span of only 15 years. So can you kind of talk through the stages of growth that you went through, growing your practice I assume it was just you, but maybe it wasn't Back in 2009, when you started into the teeth of the Great Recession. As I like to say, through the next 15, 16 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, if you told me I would be this big 16 years from now, from back then, I would have thought you were nuts. But I really never had a plan. I mean, I knew I was somewhere before practicing family law for seven years, that I didn't like how they did things. They didn't appreciate me. I was bringing in my own business. They didn't really give a shit that I was.
Speaker 1:And I'm like you know, if they don't want me, why do I want to be here? And that kind of fueled a fire in me and I'm like waiting for the right time to do this. Recession hits my second child's about to be born. I'm like this could not be worse timing. But I was sick of going home and being upset and pissed off or feeling undervalued and overworked and underpaid and I'm like I work harder than anyone, I bill more than anybody and I'm just not getting anything for it. Meanwhile I'm making these people tons of money and, again, nothing to show for it. So finally, I'm like you know what? Screw it. I'm sick of it. I'll sink or swim, whatever it's going to be Started.
Speaker 1:My own firm brought my law clerk at the time with me, who's now the managing partner of the firm here. I mean that a whole other story. But I really didn't know what it was going to be. I went off, I took a leap of faith at a crazy time in my life, at the time of the economy, and just said I'm going to outwork everybody. I don't know what this is going to become, but I'm going to give it everything I have. And nothing's changed to this day. It's just continued to grow and you learn what works, what doesn't work. And I mean I think that's a big part of business ownership in any area is you know, you got to learn from your mistakes. Not everything's going to work out perfectly, but as long as you grow from the mistakes you make, you're going to be better in the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so it's. I'm just curious. You know, you say I launched and I never had a plan, never, never thought I'd get this big as we sit here now. Do you have a plan now for five or?
Speaker 1:10 years. I mean I have more of a plan now because I have a little bit of a better idea of what I'm doing here. I knew I had the tools. As a lawyer, you know, that doesn't necessarily equate to the tools as someone running a business, so that was a variable that would be filled in sooner or later, whatever would be good or bad. You know, I didn't really know. I knew I really wanted to emphasize marketing, digital marketing, which back then you know there's these archaic lawyers which still exist today that don't really get that part of it. And now you know we're moving into AI and different areas that you know I wanted to be at the forefront of the law profession and obviously the marketing and business of it. So I knew I wanted to market.
Speaker 1:I didn't necessarily know how the first couple of years I kind of, you know, got into some marketing deals that probably weren't great Some kept the phone ringing, which is what made me be able to sleep at night and again just really pushing leads through the website, lead services, which has obviously evolved over 15 years how people do things, but just really doing things and investing in my firm instead of, you know, putting money in my pocket. I knew things were not going to be easy and even if I did succeed at the beginning, I always was thinking, you know, obviously doing what I got to do to support my family, but investing as much as I can back into the business so I can continue to grow. And you know, again, trial and error, I learned what worked and learned what didn't work. But I mean, at the end of the day too, even if you get people in the door, you still have to do a good job for them.
Speaker 1:If you get a bunch of people in and you're a shitty lawyer, your reputation is not going to be very good. So it's obviously getting people in the door, continuing to work hard, advocate for my clients, give them the right service and results that they expect, which you know, as you're growing your reputation, it's crucial at the outset, obviously to be a good attorney, not just market the hell out of things Everyone can market. But if you're not a good lawyer, you know ad reviews will come and it's just not going to end up being well. So all those things obviously so time-consuming at the beginning, just I know. I remember like being up at all hours just making sure everything was working right, and then finally getting into our own office space. That would be where we were for a while until we moved into this new office. But so many things that you don't necessarily think about when you're working for someone else that all of a sudden you got to think about. So it's a juggling act for sure.
Speaker 1:Do you still carry a caseload? I work on all my cases. I'm not in court anymore. I'm not in court anymore, I'm trying. Like I, after 20 years of litigating, you know, sat my whole firm down and said, you know, I'm just better suited, obviously. And then I'd have a million people that I hadn't called back, and clients wondering you know why I hadn't talked to them, or missing potential clients that I'd called, not getting back to them quick enough. So, and obviously running the business and growing the business itself, I just didn't have the time, but I like to be as hands-on as I can, but I have kind of made a rest of the firm react when you sat down and you told them Jonathan's not going to court anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think it was a little surprising to them because you know I was always leading the charge into the courtrooms and like let's go. You know we got, we're going to battle here. So I think it was maybe a little discouraging at first but I think very quickly they realized that this was not for just the benefit of me, it was for the benefit of them and the firm, of course. So, you know, as long as the firm continued to grow and I obviously had more time to devote to making sure, you know, everything was okay from a marketing perspective, a staffing perspective, my employees perspective, they soon realized it made sense and you know that was probably four or five years ago. Do you miss it? I do sometimes I do. I don't miss, you know again, like the backload that comes when you get back from court after a long day.
Speaker 1:I'm sure, yeah, so I don't miss that. But I do miss, you know just you know the adrenaline going when you get into court and you know examining witnesses. I do miss that stuff. But you know I'm better served with my time being spent elsewhere.
Speaker 2:I was talking with Mark Breyer, who's an injury lawyer out in Arizona and similarly, he's grown a really large and successful firm as well, and he has a rule he goes into court once a year and tries one case with somebody else, right, Right and then help some young lawyer try a case. It keeps me feeling not rusty and it's what I really like to do, right? Is it the best use of my time? Absolutely not Right, but it's fun.
Speaker 1:You know, I know it is. I was in court last I think it was like last year in the fall. I went to court for the first time like a couple years and I was like jumping out of my suit. I'm like I couldn't wait to like talk. But then, you know, my partners and the other attorneys from my firm were like we got this, we got this. So I had to like get pushed to the back almost like a first year associate because I wanted to talk so bad. But I knew that. You know it just looked weird with me the firm owner coming in just for a random court appearance when they haven't been there yet.
Speaker 2:Was that the first time that you had been back since COVID Pretty?
Speaker 1:like, yeah, toward base. I'd been there a couple times, but essentially, yes, I mean I remember randomly going for a couple of times like right when COVID ended and they let people back in, but not much. I mean you could count on one hand how many times I've been in court since COVID, Crazy.
Speaker 2:So I'm curious, you know, as somebody who left a firm to start his own thing because he was feeling underappreciated and unloved, and has now grown a firm with 20 or so attorneys, what are you doing to attract good lawyers to?
Speaker 1:you. That is the biggest struggle of any. I think All firm owners I've talked to, and really in any industry I mean, you're only as good as the people that work for you. So whether it's scouring LinkedIn or just kind of getting feedback from my attorneys about opposing counsel they have on certain cases, or obviously growing from within, which we've done a lot of I mean attracting and you know, the best talent has been really difficult. I mean, we have the amazing talent but as we continue to grow, you know you want to maintain that standard and that reputation you have. So you got to, you know, supplement my roster with people that are just as good.
Speaker 1:I mean, thankfully I have amazing loyal employees. We have very minimal, if any, turnover here. So I know once I could get them in the door, they're probably not going to go anywhere. Because you know, my top priority probably to a fault is making sure my employees are taken care of, making sure they're happy, checking in with them probably too much to make sure they have everything they need. I go above and beyond for that. So I obviously like creating a culture where my employees know that they're wanted, they have anything they need and any resources I could give them, I will, but it's finding the people to get them in the door. It's just really tough and you want those A players and they have that. It factor that you can't necessarily teach, but it's hard as you grow and you continue to need to staff your firm to get the same quality people.
Speaker 2:We're going through that right now. So I'm trying to hire an injury lawyer and we put the job out on Indeed. We sent emails to the local state and county bar associations and just crickets right, we got like 15 applications like two of them are lawyers, and so then it's brutal. The next thing that I did is I scraped the Virginia trial lawyers young lawyer division and I everybody who looked like they were a trial lawyer either injury or family law and I'll talk about family law in a second. Yeah, I'm interested, we. I just I sent him the job description of the posting and I said you know, hey, you're probably like really happy where you are, but you probably know somebody who's not. Yeah, can you get this in?
Speaker 1:front of me, and that at least great, because then they think to themselves all right, well, maybe I'm not happy.
Speaker 2:Well, right, so that at least provoked one phone call with one person, but there's like a dearth of I don't know, maybe people actually don't want to work with me, so that's, that's one thing to think about. But I think people just don't want to, don't want to change maybe this uncertain economic type. But the hack that a judge gave us is, we said like who's the next generation of great injury trial lawyers in Northern Virginia? So there really isn't a next generation because so few injury cases are going to trial. Right, what you need to look at is the young, especially the young female family law lawyers, because they're getting so much more courtroom experience. That's a great that's really smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, look, there's always going to be litigation in family law cases when you have issues of custody or money and people diametrically opposed to each other and hating each other and the emotion takes over and it just becomes much harder to settle cases, even though I do think, if you take a step back, more cases in family law as a whole are shifting more to like a alternate dispute resolution, mediation kind of phase. But I mean, there's always going to be litigation, there's always going to be abusive, drug addict spouses who are, you know, bad people and you got to go to court to get your client what you need, or you know either if you're on the other side. But back to your point about finding people. Yeah, maybe it's, people just are comfortable where they're at and they're scared of change. And you know, I don't know what it is, but it's really hard to find people and you know I'm willing to compensate them very nicely and bring them into a great firm, but it's it's just really tough. It's really tough.
Speaker 2:We did a poor job of over the last two years is continuing to scout for people, right, because we had a full team, we were good, and we have somebody who's leaving for personal reasons and not for another job, and so we just weren't looking. You know, and I think if you get into that kind of complacent area where you're not looking for more talent, you're not looking for like, who are the people that we're litigating against, that I might like to work with, you can end up in this, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just actually having this similar conversation with another firm family law firm owner and he's like are you hiring?
Speaker 2:I said I'm literally always hiring.
Speaker 1:If I don't need somebody, I'll still take them because ideally we're going to continue to grow and we're going to need someone. And you just hate to lose an opportunity because the timing where you could have had an all-star and you didn't show interest because you didn't think you need them and then, before you know it, six months later, you wish you had that back.
Speaker 2:Well, the good thing about family law is you get paid immediately by when they do the work right. It's not like contingency fee work where In a perfect world you do In a perfect world, well, but you haven't built your firm to where it is by not getting paid right.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know, but that's always a struggle of any family law firm. But yes, for the most part, yes, we've learned how to make sure we get paid.
Speaker 2:On that, on the metrics of like cases settling versus being litigated. Just with your anecdotally, in your firm, what do you see in terms of like 100 people call you, hey, we're getting divorced. How many of those are going to resolve without litigation?
Speaker 1:And yeah, I mean I would say, look, there are some people that come in and want blood, there are some people that can't avoid it. And then there are people who you know I'm committed to doing this outside of court. My spouse is the same and again, sometimes you have people who are out for blood. That you know. Cooler heads prevail and they end up settling the case easily. Sometimes you have cases that start off All right, let's sit down with a mediator and get this case done. And then something blows up, or someone gets a boyfriend or girlfriend and all hell breaks loose and you know that settlement track turns into the litigation track. I mean, at the end of the day, you know cases do go to trial and we usually always have something you know as far as a trial coming up and happening here one way or another. But I mean you know most cases are going to settle either, you know, before trial, on the eve of trial, somewhere close by. So even if it's litigated, the chances of a full blown trial are probably minimal.
Speaker 2:And you've made a hire that I've never seen before you all. For at least a year now you have a divorce coach on staff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was something I've always thought about. I mean, even this thought of mine probably had to go back 10 years. I'm just like you know we're lawyers and look, as a family law attorney, a divorce attorney, you very quickly learn how to put on that therapist hat of yours. We're not just lawyers. These people are, you know, so emotional, so upset, and you know, obviously look to us obviously as their attorneys, but also as their therapist. And I said there has to be a better way here. I mean I've always wanted to be kind of a more progressive, modern firm and I'm saying to myself you know, why don't family law firms have someone in-house that can deal with the emotional aspect of it and not necessarily, you know, an actual therapist, because of HIPAA reasons and discovery and conflicts and all that.
Speaker 1:So I really intensely, with my attorneys, looked into this, made sure I was doing what was right and ethically okay, and then obviously the idea of divorce coaches became more prevalent. I'm like this sounds like the perfect person. I would want Started an intense search on LinkedIn just trying to find the right person. That would be a good fit. That was local in the Chicago area and just kind of fit the mold and culture here and I came across Christina Lindsay who has been unbelievable. She's a certified divorce coach, she's got training in domestic violence and you know I said you know what I'm going for it. And she was all in and I said let's do this and kind of change the way people think of family law firms, and I don't know of any other firms anywhere that really have this built into their firm. And you know we're marketing her, we're marketing the concept obviously, and I mean it's been a huge hit.
Speaker 1:A lot of our clients have met with her. They of course don't have to, but they love it. You get clients who are victims of domestic violence or just really struggling with the divorce and the end of their marriage or you know, no matter what the issues are, she's great to have on the team to pass off. She's great for the attorneys because you know we allow the clients to kind of go to her to deal with the emotional stuff which she's better prepared to deal with than us, and then obviously it's great for the clients too. So it's a win-win. I mean she's a great intermediary between attorney and client. The clients love talking to her and it's definitely something new to the industry. But I think it'll catch on.
Speaker 2:I really do I really hadn't thought about the discoverability or the HIPAA compliance that comes along with either a social worker or therapist, but I guess I'm assuming that because she works for you, it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean she falls under like a support staff kind of you know privileged, and this is all kind of lined out in you know what our clients sign along with our engagement agreement, just acknowledging you know the nature of the relationship. Obviously it's optional and completely up to the client to elect to talk to or not. But yeah, I mean it's uncharted territory, I mean no one's really done it so it hasn't been challenged yet. But I mean you know this is someone strictly there to help the client and then obviously convey to us as the lawyers, you know, information she learns to just make the relationship better for everybody.
Speaker 2:Is she additionally billable or is she a benefit?
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's bill. Make sure they understand what it's about. And, like you know the, like her, but you know all of them latched on and said they love talking to her, so we're really lucky to have her Interesting.
Speaker 2:And so I know so many law firms, family law firms start out kind of recruiting clients from these like I don't know. Like Saturday sessions, right, you go host in the library If you're thinking about getting a divorce. You kind of come in and get a little bit of education. Are you all putting on anything?
Speaker 1:like that. Yeah, I mean we're always doing stuff. I mean I've, you know, encourage all obviously my attorneys here to get out there, whether they're speaking at bar associations or domestic violence groups or, you know, mom support groups, father's rights groups, wherever we get out there, and you know we're out in the community, our people are talking to you know, just obviously general meetings, like you spoke about, just to give general advice, and I think it's good for obviously promoting the firm but obviously just helping the communities that we're in. It's been nice to see that.
Speaker 2:Why do?
Speaker 1:people hire you, what is the brand or the special sauce that they share for anybody else? Well, we do a good job. First and foremost, we get results and I think what differentiates us. I mean, look, we have a 20 attorney firm, which is a big firm, especially in family law, but we still have that small firm feel. I mean, I never forget, I continue to preach to my employees like I never forget when it was just me and clients really liking the one-on-one and then knowing that I'm always available and making sure, despite the fact we have, like, big firm infrastructure, we still want to provide that small firm feel, which is why, you know, we have teams and we assign a certain number of lawyers to each client.
Speaker 1:So they have, you know, numerous points of contact, multiple, you know, hands on deck, multiple hands on deck. So by doing that, I think we still maintain that small firm feel, but they also like the prestige and reputation we have as a large firm that can handle, obviously, you know, complex cases, high net worth cases. So it's a combination of both and, of course, the results at the end of the day is what really matters. And I think we're straight shooters too. A lot of my competitors just tell their clients what they want to hear, give them unrealistic expectations, which messes up the entire case on both sides. So I've just built my reputation on being straight, whether clients like what I have to say or not. I just have learned there's no reason to over promise and undeliver and give them expectations that aren't realistic.
Speaker 2:Both in these practice areas where it's like whatever advice I give you is only as good as the story that you've just told me, and how accurate. Exactly. You know, for me it's like when I get into your medical record, I'm going to, I'm going to learn like.
Speaker 1:Did you have a prior injury to the neck before? Exactly right.
Speaker 2:You're not getting complaints.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like.
Speaker 2:I'm going to see your text messages.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Well, again, we all we've seen so many, I'm sure, in our careers you see a lot of good people, a lot of bad people, a lot of honest people, a lot of people are totally full of shit. But it's how quickly we realize they're full of shit. I guess it matters.
Speaker 2:I got to imagine that's one of the harder parts about family law is like again, it's only the advice that I'm giving you is only as good as the story that you're telling me and the validity of it. Right, and so you know I can carve out like here's what you're likely to get when I start reading the text messages and the emails. Then now we're having a fight between me and you on what the truth actually is.
Speaker 1:You know, there's nothing worse than fighting with your own clay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that emotional management, I imagine, is really hard for your team. So do you have anything in place for the team, like a coach or an executive coach or anybody?
Speaker 1:You know, I almost thought when I first brought in Christina I mean obviously my main idea was obviously helping the clients.
Speaker 1:But I don't know if, like you, watch the show, billions, the girl who is there for, like, the mental health of the employees. I don't think anyone's utilized that yet but I mean it would be great, you know, to have a resource in-house. Obviously that can help with the emotional toll it takes. And again, the more seasoned attorneys I think you get how to deal with it. You got to compartmentalize it. You can't take it home, you can't take every case so personally. But you know a lot of our young lawyers. I mean everyone goes through that struggle where they get so emotionally involved in the case and they treat it like you know it's almost their own family and you say, look, we're going to zealously advocate for all of our clients. I love, put it away. We go home. Yeah, sure, you might think about work and always be kind of in somewhat of a working thought process, but you can't get emotionally involved. You won't last in this business and I've seen people just burn out because they can't do that.
Speaker 2:Once in a while. I think you know the guy who works at Walmart and Walmart's maybe not the best example, but like he's not thinking about customers at 507.
Speaker 1:Exactly exactly. But this is the profession we chose and I feel like, naturally, you know, especially, I mean, there's so many parallels between personal injury and family. I think, while there's many differences, it's just, you know, it's such a huge event that they're going through, whether it be a horrible injury or something that changes their ability to work, and obviously the divorce and breaking up a family. I mean these are huge moments in people's lives and you and I have to address them and obviously get them through very difficult times.
Speaker 2:You mentioned AI and I think it might have been in the context of marketing, but I'm curious if there are any AI tools that you guys are using within the law firm that you've found to be helpful.
Speaker 1:So we use Smokeball as our case management software and we've tested out some of this stuff. I don't know. I know it's the future and we use it. I use it certainly in a little bit of marketing for our firm. I'm just not sure how it should be used yet. I mean, obviously I'm not going to use it to draft a pleading, but it's where is the line exactly? That's kind of what I'm still exploring and you know me and my office.
Speaker 1:We have meetings like monthly that we talk about. You know technology and the law and while there are these platforms, even within our software that you know utilize AI and you can kind of do it as an add on and even for, like, reviewing discovery. You know volumes and volumes of discovery. I get it, but I just don't, while I know it's not going anywhere, it's just going to become more and more prevalent. It just parts of it make me feel weird. Where you know I have a computer telling me what it just happened, when you know I want a set of human eyes making sure that nothing's missed. And, you know, maybe the computer's smarter, I don't know, but it's just doesn't see. I'm not there yet, but I understand it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've. We've tested a couple for medical records, summaries and things, and none of them are quite ready for prime time. They have a hard time determining what's important. You know, right, it'll sort all the information out for you and you. I think you can get it to a point where it's not inventing stuff. You still do have to double check and make sure it's actually there, right. The better use case really is like is taking their brief and your draft response and saying make my response better, right, right, without making up any cases. Yeah, but that's kind of the better use case for that. What about automation within the firm to improve client experience? Are you using anything like a case status or a HONA or any of those?
Speaker 1:No, I mean not automated. No, we haven't gotten there yet. I mean again, we're always looking for new ways to kind of improve the client experience. That's a whole other committee is, you know, client satisfaction, but we haven't gotten into that. Are you using that?
Speaker 2:We do, but, but ours is a little bit more production line right, so pre treating demand, demand pending like litigation is a little bit more, and so we use it to shoot, send out videos about hey, here's what we just, here's what just happened. Here's frequently asked questions in this status and as a reminder, like here are the three people working on your case. So it's not, it's not a ton of stuff, but it it. We do have a very high adoption rate of clients that use the thing that we send out and it, anecdotally, it seems to have cut down on number of calls about what's going on in my case. Right, always look at the phone and see okay, what exactly status, right, and there's nothing, it's automated and it's it's general.
Speaker 1:so there's nothing that's you know. We use it, for we have, yeah, I mean, we use um, um, I think it's called lead, lead docket or something which is our intake software and that's more of an automated thing. Obviously, we get our intake people on the phone to get their information. But, you know, like email drip campaigns, where you're constantly like reaching out to clients who are thinking about it or didn't necessarily hire right away. It's just kind of shooting out emails that are kind of timed out is just to kind of keep the connection.
Speaker 2:That seems to me to be a little bit dangerous in family law, right, you know, if I contacted a divorce lawyer and I haven't told my spouse yet, like that, that and then and then any kind of Facebook, instagram remarketing or cookie tagging.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, really nervous.
Speaker 2:And that I could see being dangerous. But they've had the email already from us. But yeah, I mean, if your spouse is scouring your email, I guess you're probably in trouble to begin with. So yeah, the other thing that's that I hear from a lot of my friends who run family law practices is this use of non-attorney salespeople. Have you experimented with that? Do you use that, or your lawyers?
Speaker 1:I haven't. No, it's the first I'm even hearing about it. How does it?
Speaker 2:work Well. It's like your intake team right.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you're having lawyers do intakes. Oh no, I mean we have our intake team that kind of gets the info and then shoots it off to a lawyer to kind of seal the deal. But I mean, essentially it's usually the attorney that's kind of getting to the point of all right, we're going to hire you Because most people want to talk to a lawyer first. I think we've had some instances where they're just ready to hire and the intake person signs them up, but then ultimately it's obviously assigned to a lawyer.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll tell you. My personal experience is I also thought most people wanted to talk to a lawyer first, and we talk to almost nobody now. Probably in our auto accident practice, probably nine out of 10 people don't ever talk to a lawyer before they sign a rejection.
Speaker 1:It's amazing.
Speaker 2:And my friends you think that's?
Speaker 1:just a PI thing.
Speaker 2:Well, that may be, but I have friends who Scott and Zach Ashby, out in Washington State on a Pacific Northwest family law group, and you don't get to talk to a lawyer until you've signed right. It's like Wow, those are all legal questions and my team is excellent at answering them and he's put his whole sales team through Grant Cardone's training university. It's all about objection, answering knowledge, and as soon as your credit card swipes, you could talk to a lawyer and get all your legal questions answered, which you know. If I were hiring a family like, I probably would want to talk to the lawyer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean just because. Well, first of all, obviously, if someone's personal, I mean a lot of our business comes from referrals.
Speaker 1:You know, I just feel bad. If someone was referred hey, you know you gotta talk to Jonathan, and then you know, all right, well, you can't talk to him until you hire us Maybe family life seems to me would be different just because you know you're dealing with your children and you know maybe more pressing issues about you know, I'm cut off from our accounts. I don't know what to do. Our accounts, I don't know what to do. Or my husband or wife just took off with our kid. I mean, you know, maybe more of an emergent situation that causes people to want to hear what's next from an attorney, but I don't know. Who knows.
Speaker 2:Well, here's, here's what Zach would tell you. Zach would tell you that lawyers are bad salespeople because we jump into problem solving mode, right, and so that that line about I've been cut off from my accounts the lawyer would dive into all the ways that we're going to solve that problem and the well-trained non-attorney sales rep would just tell you we're going to solve it, we've solved it for hundreds of people like you and we've done the process and we've done it. You know and it works. And he's tracked conversion rates between lawyers and the non-attorney sales people and sometimes, when you solve the person's problem on the phone that they don't, they don't need you anymore Right now I know what to do.
Speaker 1:Well, that's interesting, that's really interesting. I didn't even I mean you know, it just seems like I mean it's such a financial investment. Yes, and when you're talking about people who have lots of money, I just feel like they want to hear, make sure they have a rapport, like the tone of their attorney, feel like they could trust them, and I thought all of those same thing. I guess maybe I'm.
Speaker 2:But but again, you know the the blessing of my industry is I don't ever have to convince anybody to write me a check, right, right. Well, that's all hypothetical. I think you have a much more challenging industry in terms of the sale, but I do know people for whom it, for whom it works.
Speaker 1:So they're just signing up based on, obviously, your firm's reputation, I'm sure that?
Speaker 2:Yes, I like to believe that, but I got to tell you, man, the speed with which people who are not in our universe, who just found us on Google or and we don't run LSAs right now but who just called us for an LSA and talked only to the intake team, and talked to the intake team for 17 minutes and you send them a docu sign and 30 seconds later they've signed the thing.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't do, it people do is it just because they're in like a frantic situation kind of? Or they're just like you know what? All right, I mean, a docu sign is great, it's so easy.
Speaker 2:Well, do what you had to do before they tend not to be fantastic clients right, at least compared to the people who have come to you because they know you, because they've done their research right. They tend to be more challenging clients. They tend to have smaller cases. But I think also, either it's a high level of trust, which I doubt, or they view lawyers as commodities, which is like if you're looking for a lawyer on Google and you've done no other independent research and you're just clicking on the first button, then it's, it's speed to lead, especially in in the PI industry. It's like one phone call, here's the docusign and now you have the drip texting right, I mean, if you don't sign. So I didn't think people would buy like that, but they do.
Speaker 1:It's amazing, I mean look in this in this day and time, I feel like it's just everything's got to be like a quick fix, easy thing. You know, people now are just get frustrated if they don't have a docusign and they have to sign or scan. Everything's like it needs to be instant.
Speaker 1:Everything needs to be instant. Which, look, if it's an impulse decision, all right, this is easy. I can get this done from my cell phone and don't have to move Like I. Just that may make sense. I mean, if people are, you know, need to do something and hire someone fast, then that makes sense to me. Then I guess.
Speaker 2:I mean again, they're not the ideal client, but there's tons of people that buy like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:Even our ideal, like, I don't know, it's just. Sometimes it seems very easy, right? Maybe a bad thing to say, but it just.
Speaker 2:Oh, bad thing to say, but I get it. I hear what you say. Once you attract somebody and once you're on the phone with somebody and we've talked and you know, it's like if the only thing I really want you to do on that first phone call is stop shopping for anybody else and then allow my team to decide are you somebody that we want to work with? Right, and so, as long as we can get you to stop so, we have a 24 seven phone answering service. They don't really do an intake, but their job is to set the appointment. So they stop looking right and you probably have something similar. Yeah, for sure. Are you in court a lot Personally? No, no, I mean I'm a lot like you. Right, I have a small caseload.
Speaker 2:My best use is discussing the other cases with the team and telling them what to do. It is not sitting in depositions, but you know, I just I just resolved this case for a half million dollars and I feel like I did great work, Like we found we it's a drunk, drunk driving, punitive damages case where in his deposition the guy I don't drink anymore, I go to AA, I'm totally reformed and his lawyer is telling the mediator all of that and I and I'm like I should just look, like I should look one more time. So I looked in the court case, the criminal court thing, and sure enough, three counts of possession of cocaine. While we were litigating that case I said, judge, that'll get it settled, yeah, so the offer went from 225 to 500,000 in three hours Amazing.
Speaker 1:I'm still pretty good at this. You did a good job. That's great, so it makes you feel good.
Speaker 2:Like that's great. So it's hard to feel good, like I still got it. I mean, it's hard. It's hard to convince yourself. No, actually, in most cases, my highest and best use is not doing this work. I don't know, but the reason that we do this is because it's fun, right? You want to have the job that you enjoy showing up to on Monday.
Speaker 1:Of course. I mean, look, I loved being a lawyer and I love running the business. You just kind of got to balance both as much as you can. And again I keep saying it again, it's all about the people you have. If you have good people doing it, you know as hard as it was to kind of delegate and relinquish. You know us thinking that you know no one's going to do it better than us. I mean, once you kind of know you have good people and great attorneys working for you, it just makes it a lot easier. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:I think that's an amazing place to wind up. Where can people find out more about you if they can't read all your? Well, I'm on.
Speaker 1:LinkedIn. Just like you, I'm competing with Brian Glass for LinkedIn glory, but you can find me on LinkedIn or at Merrill Family Law M-E-R-R-E-L. Familylawcom. It's been great to be here. Great chatting with you, Brian, Thank you.
