Life Beyond the Briefs

Simple, Profitable Marketing for Law Firm Owners | Michelle Pippin & Johnine Clark

• Brian Glass

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This episode of Life Beyond the Briefs is a breakout session from the GLM Summit featuring Michelle Pippin (founder of Women Who Wow / WoWX) and Johnine Clark, a Maryland family law and estate planning attorney who has built a busy, referral driven practice by getting very clear on who she serves and how she wants to work.

This is not a “do all the things” marketing talk. It is two women being straight with you about what actually brings in good cases and a sane schedule. Michelle shares how she turned about fifty bucks and a big idea into a seven figure business. Johnine walks through how she niched her practice, tightened her brand, and became the obvious choice for a specific kind of client without living on social media.

You will hear them get into:

  • How to build a real referral ecosystem instead of just hoping people remember you
  • Getting honest about your best clients and being okay that not everyone is a fit
  • Using micro niches so your ideal clients feel like you are talking directly to them
  • Creating “surround sound” visibility so your name comes up in rooms you are not in
  • Reusing and reshaping content you already have so marketing feels sustainable

It is candid, funny, and very real about money, motherhood, and being a woman who is serious about growing a law firm on her own terms.

Connect with Michelle Pippin

Connect with Johnine Clark

____________________________________
Brian Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury lawyer in Fairfax, Virginia. He is passionate about living a life of his own design and looking for answers to solutions outside of the legal field. This podcast is his effort to share that passion with others.

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SPEAKER_03:

But there's one authority asset that I think every attorney should have. And it's the first visibility like artifact that I create with my members. And it's called the expert expose. And it's super intentional. It is a where you kind of bust like five myths in your industry. And the reason I get people to create that first is because it sets you apart. It allows you to show how you're different than other people in your industry. It could be like a prominent divorce attorney exposes five myths that keep families fighting and broke. Maryland's top business litigator shares five common but hidden mistakes that put small businesses at major legal risk. This is not like you post on your website and go, like, I actually have a couple different columns of my own. So with my members, I share it with them. But I use the language and the title very intentionally. Like if you want to be a Maryland's top family lawyer, then I'm going to put that in the article, right? And then we use it for all our other visibility efforts, like podcast interviews, journal interviews, and things like that. You take a stand in the article and it is a gorgeous, gorgeous, you know, artifact to have. It pays big time dividends. And the point of this visibility asset is that it commands authority. It sets you apart from all of your competitors. It's super easy to do. It's fun to write, and it just reverberates with surround sound visibility if you if you actually deploy it, right? You can't just write it and paste it somewhere. You got to deploy it in a strategy.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another episode of Life Beyond the Briefs, the number one podcast for lawyers choosing to live lives of their own design and design the kind of practices that they actually like showing up to on Mondays. Today's episode is a breakout session from the 2025 Great Legal Marketing Summit, which happened back in October. Maybe you missed this summit entirely, or maybe you chose another breakout session. Either way, I think you're gonna get a ton of value out of this episode, which is a discussion between my friends Michelle Pippen and Janine Clark. Janine is a lawyer in Maryland. She has a family law practice and an estate planning practice. And Michelle Pippen is uh is one of her coaches. Michelle has a group that's called Women Who Wow. It is a group designed to empower female entrepreneurs by providing visibility support and emphasizing the importance of building a strong community. In this episode, the two discuss how to build authority within your niche, how to create visibility assets, and leverage content beyond traditional advertising in order to stand out in a crowded market. I think you will get a ton of value as we go into 2026 from episodes like this, learning how to leverage referrals, how to take one piece of production and content and use it seven different ways, which something we talk about a lot within Great Lugal Marketing. If you dig this episode and you want to get the complete notes from this episode and all of the other speakers that were at our summit in October in 2025, head on over to GLM summitnotes.com. And if you trade me your email address, I will send you 122 pages of notes, slides, and a QR code where you can access the videos all for one email address. Pretty good deal. So if you get something out of this episode, if you get something out of the recordings that we're releasing from the summit, make sure you check the summit notes because frankly, you know, some people learn the best by listening, and maybe if you're a podcast listener, that's you. Some people learn the best by listening and viewing, and you can get the video as well over at GLM SummitNotes.com. And some people interpret the best by reading. And reading is something you can, you know, take, mark up, make it your own, pass it off to your staff to implement. I think you will really enjoy what we have at GLM Summitnotes.com. So without further ado, my friends Michelle Pippen and Johnine Clark.

SPEAKER_05:

So my name is Janine Clark, and I have been in GLM for it seems like forever. I am part of the Hero Mastermind Group, and it is my pleasure to be in front of you all this morning. We're just going to have a chat. We wanted to be more fireside chattish, right? And I have a family law and estate planning practice in Maryland. So I have the pleasure of introducing to you the woman that got me started on this journey of yes, you need a business coach, you need someone to guide you through this process, Michelle Pippen. She is amazing. She has a lot of great information. And the thing that I liked about Michelle when I first met her was she brought it down to the brass tacks. She said, Do you need to make money like today? And I was in the front of the room, absolutely shaking my head. And she gave me tips for me to start making money right away, which is, I guess, primarily why we're all here. Ladies, I'd like to introduce you to Michelle Pippen.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you so much. Fun fact about Janine is when I first started, I just wanted to create a women's group that wasn't like all the other women's groups, right? Where people, and no, no offense to anybody, you know, if they're selling lipstick or skincare or whatever, but I would wonder back in, I guess it was what, 2012.

SPEAKER_05:

I can't remember that's how long it is.

SPEAKER_03:

I was like, where are like the really serious women entrepreneurs, right? Like what group are they in? And they didn't have a group of their own. So I started Women Who WoW way back then. And I wasn't sure what it was going to be when it grew up. And so I decided to start a live in-person four-hour meeting. And the way you got to the meeting was you got a print invite. Honest to God, this is how it grew. Cause I wanted to protect the culture. I didn't want like anyone with a loser's limp in there, right? So I was like, the way I grew it is you got invited. I invited 40 people to the first meeting. And um you got invited via a print invite. And the invite was you got to pay to attend. But that's the only way you got to attend. So every month I'd have this meeting and then I'd ask for people who else should be here, who should be in this room. And then they'd get a print invite. And so that's how Women Who Wow was born. And then it uh it grew and grew. And we ended up with members in every state and a handful of countries. And we've really recently shifted to WoW X or Wow Exponential, where we are the visibility engine behind a lot of women-led brands. And few things break my heart more than seeing women entrepreneurs like chasing algorithms and begging for attention when they should be being sought out by their ideal clients. And so I build visibility engines for them. We call them visibility codes. We do one every month. And um, I'm all about brass tacks and making money. I think that's part of growing up broke, right? Like I had everything I needed. But when I started my business, I was then and am now married to a public school teacher. I took um a quarter of my life savings to start my business. And I had$213 in savings. So that was about$50, exactly$50 to start my business. And um, I have crossed the million dollar a year mark multiple times. And I actually crossed it, thank you. And then I walked away completely from that. It was just not built in integrity for me. I rebuilt it my own way. And um, just to I like to keep everything really, really honest. Um, and so I don't do nothing wrong with these things, but I don't rely on ads or affiliates or social media. I look at like accumulating media is what I call it, but it's the low ego industry journals, association newsletters, um, podcast interviews, and that's how all of my um members find me.

SPEAKER_05:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

We'll be able to go into a little bit of that today, but I am thrilled to be with you guys.

SPEAKER_05:

And I, as I'm looking at our slides, there is a lot of information on there. I don't know what I was doing when I created these, but my hope is just that you get at least one idea. It may be something that you're doing already, but maybe you'll get a little bit of additional fluff that you can add to it because at the end of the day, it's about making money. One of the things I think is interesting is as I sit in the masterminds and everyone's throwing out these acronyms, right? And I'm like, I don't look, I don't know what PPC, LMNOP, LSA, I don't know any of that. And I mentioned that. And so the question was asked of me, well, do you have potential clients coming through the door? Is your phone ringing? Are people, you know, responding to your website? And I'm like, yeah, but like, well, that's what it's all about. So, you know, if all of the acronyms are for you, that's great. But, you know, we're just gonna talk about some of the things that have worked for me and for Michelle. It may be some things that you're already doing, maybe we'll give you some ideas to help you make those ideas a little bit better or enhance them a little bit. And then also to kind of give you the thought that, you know, we work in a different space sometimes, and how people approach us is a little different sometimes or most times. Um, and then how do you navigate that and just make sure that you're still enjoying what you're doing, but that you're profitable as well.

SPEAKER_03:

So we have a quick question for you guys, but before I say that, I just always like to preface like I'm always kind of the the dark horse of the industry. And so I have nothing against like ads or the, you know, the you know, the the meta ads or the other ads or the retargeting. I have nothing against any of that. It's just how I I don't choose to run my business that way. I will I like a simple business and a simple life. And so um I just do it differently. But there's nothing against any of that. I just want to say that up front because it's cool to learn. And if you want to build, you know, every business needs an engine for people to find you. And so whatever one you choose, this is just what we're gonna talk about today, is just an alternate option, right? That is kind of old school, very traditional, but it still works. And actually, it works better today than it did 26 years ago when I started. Like it works so much better today because the the other landscapes are noisy and chaotic. They have zero gravitas and zero authority in those noisy spaces. And the visibility engines actually they come with a certain authority in gravitas. But first, we have a fun question for you guys. And it would, whoever answers, Janine will choose the winner and you get something fun.

SPEAKER_05:

Right. Because this could be more than we want as many of you all that are willing to participate to participate. And you're gonna answer or finish the sentence behind every successful woman lawyer is, and then I'm gonna judge who has the best answer. Okay, we got one up front. Yes, ma'am? A tribe, a tribe, okay. That's a good one. Inspiration. Anyone else? Yes, you can just yeah, a story of perseverance.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome.

SPEAKER_05:

A great team, a plan. Plan. Not silly at all. What about a man, right?

SPEAKER_01:

If you marry the housekeeper, it's super easy. Absolutely. Anyone else? I was I was gonna say team, but I'm gonna say your BFFs. What did you say? Your girlfriends, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Absolutely. And we're, you know, we're just gonna kind of pass our our cube microphone around just so that we get everyone in the recording. So I think I like inspiration.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, who said inspiration? My gosh. So WoW is known literally, like we are legendary for our gift bags, right? So when you come to a WoW event, you'll literally um bring a different suitcase to check on the way home. So I have you some um some gifts from our sponsors. It's everything from like nootropics and uh vitamins to a um a menstrual cup, um to I don't know, like something we have Volva cream. No matter what you need, we have sponsors for it. So yeah, have fun with that.

SPEAKER_05:

You know, I don't know what I was doing, doing. I'm supposed to name this, right? The green one, right? Oh, that green one. Yes. The other green one. Okay. So again, a lot of, you know, we have a lot of information on these slides, like I said. I don't know what I was thinking when I was. Let's just have a conversation about it. So we're just gonna have a conversation. It's just really a guide. So, did you want to talk about referrals or do you want me to talk about referrals? Or you want to start?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I'll just start. So um, for me, I like to keep things super simple, super clean, and so and and kind of holistic, right? So referrals are obviously a part of a really holistic ecosystem for your business. And the thing that I feel like I wanted to say about referrals is that most women entrepreneurs, women attorneys would agree that referrals are the best way to get clients. Um, typically they're free. These people come already, you know, excited to meet you, wanting to hire you. They're a great, great client pipeline. But too few women entrepreneurs are actively making an effort in the referral department, right? So we had somebody up here yesterday talking about like getting like college sweatshirts for someone as a referral. Yeah, that was a great idea. Yeah, I love that. And we had somebody else up here talking yesterday, like spending four hours a month, like recording videos that you can repurpose in a million different ways. I would suggest, like, I guess my main point for referrals is to figure out like a time that you can actually actually choreograph referrals. Like, don't just hope for them. Don't just like send off information about your firm, like really choreograph and orchestrate the referrals. And so, you know, two questions should really guide your referral like system. And one is who should be telling their clients about you, right? Who should be doing it? I don't give referral fees, there's nothing against it, but I like people to refer me because I made a difference in their business, right? And I can make a difference in their friends or clients' business. So, first question is who should be telling their clients about you? And then what should they be telling their clients about you and how can you make it easy for them? And so just a few different, like, again, like super easy ways. Interview someone for your podcast, your newsletter, even if you don't have an ongoing podcast or newsletter or for your Facebook feed, whatever it is, interview them because they will likely share that interview with their people. You want to like make sure that you're doing what you can to get these referrals, provide an article for their newsletter or site. Even like doing something like a joint client appreciation party can be really great. You know, a lot of times we wish for referrals, but we can be choreographing them. Keep it low school, keep it old school, keep it low-key, but keep it consistent.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. And I have found that referrals are always going to be like my main source of clients, even though I have now everyone is well, I guess it's becoming 50-50, but I always lean back on that because I guess that's my safe place. You know, I get a lot of phone calls in the office and they'll say that they they were looking for an attorney on Google. That's great. But I think when I when I think of referrals, I think of my becoming a name in the area. Number one, it's it's a name that other attorneys feel comfortable with referring people to if that's not an area that they practice. And then, for example, for me, since I do family law, therapists are a great source of re referrals for me, right? And, you know, what we'll do just to cultivate that type of relationship is, you know, not necessarily send them, you know, a school t-shirt or something like that, but, you know, a gift basket or wine or something like that just as a thank you. Because what I've found is I'm so surprised at how many thank yous people do not get, or how often people are so surprised that you thought about them enough to do something thoughtful. And it's something that will remain present of mind. So they'll be like, Well, God, that was the attorney that at least thought about me while I'm doing all of this hard work and I'm going through the day-to-day work of owning a business that they thought enough to, you know, send a thoughtful gift or a thank you. So definitely those.

SPEAKER_03:

And just as we're thinking about the referral sources that should be telling their clients about you, like one way to think about them is they have their own conferences, right? There's like their own like therapy association conferences, realtor conferences, financial advisor conferences. So they're sitting in rooms like this, learning about how they've got to put content out and make a video push for their thing and maybe why podcasting is the newest thing with Spotify, joining Netflix, like all these things, right? They're learning the same crap we're learning, right? And so what they come home with are they have content needs, right? And so for me, I'm like, well, that's a brilliant thing because I always say, like, people say, Oh, you're against social media. I'm not against social media, but I'm saying, like, what a shame to let what you create for social media to live in such a noisy, chaotic environment. Why not repurpose it for things like referrals, right? Like, so, hey, do you need a video? Do you need content? Like these this is the kind they want to grow their business just like we're growing ours. So I just I just want to look for like I I say I look for the Michelle-shaped hole in every business that is should be a client pipeline for me. And then I fill it.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. So just like by a show of hands, how many people or how many ladies feel like you know the referral is still their main source of getting clients? Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

So it deserves some real attention. It deserves some real strategy and intention behind it, right?

SPEAKER_05:

Absolutely. Okay. I'm doing better.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. This next one is my what I'm super passionate about. Um, the authority asset play, right? And so, you know, I I work with my members to create authority um assets or visibility assets. And there's the way that I just kind of I take what everybody else is teaching and I just take it a step further and make it a touch more intentional or leverageable, right? So obviously we we are told all throughout this entire conference, create content, educational content, content that lets them um, you know, relate to you. You learn all about this kind of stuff, right? And so my thing is, where should that content live? Obviously, it should live in your funnel. Obviously, it should be an opt-in on your website. Obviously, you should share it on your social media pages, but you want your content to live. You want to be be kind of like a good steward of your content. You want it to live outside of your own ecosystem. I can't tell you the number of people who come to me and say, I feel like I'm talking to the same people. And I always say, Are you talking to the same people? Right. If you're only like messaging your list and your social media feed, of course you're talking to the same people. We've got to orchestrate visibility. And so you should definitely do everything you're being taught today. But there's one authority asset that I think every attorney should have. And it's the first visibility like artifact that I create with my members, and it's called the expert expose. And it's super intentional. It is a where you kind of bust like five myths in your industry. And the reason I get people to create that first is because it sets you apart. It allows you to show how you're different than other people in your industry. And my parents own this works in every industry, but my parents own a construction company. And um we just sold it for a multi-uh seven-figure exit for them, which I'm super proud of because I managed that entire process. But um, when we were building it, my dad was built his company the same way I built mine, which was like with no investment. You know, he drove around like a doo-doo-brown truck. He, you know, he would get a job and then he'd like buy the tools that he needed for the next job. And it was very, very like homegrown. And our goal with that construction company was to make the outer banks, which is where they live, to make the outer banks homeowners afraid not to use see-through construction. And it wasn't a couple of years before that was an actual thing. They're like, oh, you know, so-and-so is cheaper, but we know we need to use see-through construction. And it was this kind of marketing that did that. So the expert expose, and it can be, and I wrote down some um notes for you guys, but it could be like prominent divorce attorney exposes five myths that keep families fighting and broke. Maryland's top business litigator shares five common but hidden mistakes that put small businesses at major legal risk. This is not like you post on your website and go, like, I actually have a couple different columns of my own. So with my members, I share it with them. But I use the language and the title very intentionally. Like, if you want to be a Maryland's top family lawyer, then I'm gonna put that in the article, right? And then we use it for all our other visibility efforts, like podcast interviews and journal interviews and things like that. You take a stand in the article, and it is a gorgeous, gorgeous um, you know, artifact to have. It pays big time dividends. If you guys want that, just give me your card or something. I'll I will email it to you. And the point of this visibility asset is that it commands authority. It sets you apart from all of your competitors. It's super easy to do, it's fun to write, and it just reverberates with surround sound visibility if you if you actually deploy it, right? You can't just write it and paste it somewhere. You got to deploy it in a strategy.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, for me, what I'm realizing now is that I have all of this content that I need to repurpose, right? So yes, I've been doing the blog for this number of years. I've been doing the newsletter for this number of years. Well, now I'm gonna go back to like the first ones, assuming that they're not cringe worthy, and I'm gonna start repurposing that. Like, why am I going out trying to do or reinvent the wheel when I have all of this content that I can already use? So that's one thing I would recommend. Start looking back and seeing what you've done before and start repurposing repurposing it in different ways. You know, I would say that our consumers, folks that are looking for lawyers, their attention span is very short. So it's not like they're gonna remember what you did two or three years ago, because of course, you know, they're looking at their issue, what's going on right now, and can you help me? So I would definitely suggest that you start repurposing some of the old information that you may have.

SPEAKER_03:

I have something fun to say. So, and again, I just need your business card if you want the visibility artifact, like how to create your own. But um, the the experts expose, but I have several columns of my own, and I'm currently writing Women Changing the Legal Landscape. And so I'd love to feature some of you guys. I'm also writing for the American City Business Journals Women to Watch in various cities, every 53 cities, whichever ones have the bit like Boston Business Journal, LA Business Journal, New York Business Journal. And so um, I have an opportunity to feature you guys.

SPEAKER_05:

So um just even if you don't think you're changing the landscape. That's right.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah. Like I'm a marketer, not a journalist. I am very, I'm very clear with all of my editors on it. I'm like, I'm a marketer, not a journalist. You're not paying me enough to like abide by some guideline. You can tap it down if I've been too promotional, but I like to highlight women. Um anyway, so we can have some fun um with that. And if you want to, if you want to um get my repurpose rhythm roadmap, there's um I didn't put it on the slide, but B is in Barbara, not as in like B E. B michellepippen.com backslash featured. And you won't just get like my it'll be a visibility shift for you, what I really, really hope will be a good shift for you. And then the repurpose rhythm roadmap, but you'll also get a link to my pitch me first. It's like a Google form, and you can put in there, you know, get you to put in your city, your industry, things like that, so that when I'm writing, I can, you know, that's that's where I go to my members first, and then I go to that pitch me first, and that's how I can find people to feature.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. And one of the things I want to say and and applaud Michelle for is that she was excellent at helping me figure out the whole avatar part of my practice. Um, and we've really sat down and and kind of figured out, you know, who is the best client, who's the one that I want to see come through the door as opposed to the ones that I want to see leave out the door. And so, you know, and it wasn't a a difficult process, but once I did that, it just led to everything else falling in place for me.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, that's the next strategy.

SPEAKER_05:

Yep. So as I thought. So for me, um, and I think Charlie Hoffmeyer down in Virginia. So a lot of his practice was directed towards women who are going through divorce, custody, child support. I love women, let me just say that. Okay. But they are not my best client. And so I found that the best client, which was, and and some of you all will understand this, sorry, men that are in the room, is that, you know, men would come in, tell me what to do, which I love, right? And tell me when to show up, like a wedding, right? Like, okay, here's the money. Go, go orchestrate, get everything together for the wedding, just tell me what to say and at what time. And I love that, right? To an extent. So what I found with Michelle's help was that my that's my best client, right? Men who are going through divorces, who are going through custody battles, who are going through child support cases as well. And so it just developed from there. One of the other things that Michelle suggested that I do is because I had this really ugly blue color scheme. And so I went back to some of my really great male clients. I said, listen, this is ugly. I've got to, you know, fix this. What about this color scheme? What about this color scheme? What about this color scheme? And so everything kind of became what they wanted to be. Orange and brown aren't necessarily my favorite colors, but it hit with them. You know, they connected with it. So once you get through that process and figure out who your avatar person is or personality is or trait, then everything else kind of falls in place as well.

SPEAKER_03:

That's awesome. So I think now's where I get to be um relatable, right? So this came full circle for me because when we met, my son was probably eight or something. I don't know. And so um fast forward to 2024, I think. Anyway, he has he's a hoe. He had a one-night stand with this girl at school who he had a previous relationship with, and she really H O or W W. He's a H O.

SPEAKER_05:

H-O.

SPEAKER_03:

Not any, not anymore. I think he's reformed, but by this situation. So anyway, they had dated a long time. They broke up, and he she evidently texted him something nobody could resist. I'm like, oh no, I could resist it, you know? And so anyway, he had sex with her, and then like four or five months later, she I mean, we can be we can be honest, right?

SPEAKER_05:

We're all family and friends, right? Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Oh, it was funny. So it wasn't at first. I grinded my teeth so bad out of stress and strain that I broke two teeth. But anyway, so she said it was his his baby. She hasn't had sex with anybody else since him in like three years, like blah, blah, blah. And so who do I call? The woman who represents men in Maryland, because she lived in Maryland, right? I mean, you couldn't even get better than those.

SPEAKER_05:

It was crazy. I was like, what?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you know, it was agonizing. She at first said she was giving the baby up for adoption. I've got three grandbabies of my own, and they are my heart. I love them with everything I am. I mean, it's such a pure love and it's like untempered by responsibility. It's the best. And so, you know, anyway, like to have a one of my grandbabies, even living in Maryland, forget like, you know, like being adopted out. I mean, I my heart is broken. Anyway, luckily, full circle, I call the attorney who focuses on men in in Maryland, and um, it turned out too, she evidently did have sex with somebody else in three years. So it's uh it was not my son's baby, zero percent chance fraternity, they found the real father, and the story ended well for us.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, but the funny part of this story, if there's a funny part, now it's now it's funny. It wasn't funny back then, right? Is that if you can just imagine Michelle with all of her energy, right? And as she said, she's an Uber mom when it comes to her kids. So all I could envision was Michelle driving from North Carolina as soon as she found out to Maryland to not only locate the young lady, but her parents and everyone that was connected with her. And I think you did something like that, right?

SPEAKER_03:

So the baby's born, and me and my best friend go down with a um a male-in paternity test, right? And while the baby's in the hospital, like my best friend's like swabbing the cheek. And the baby actually loved it. She was like leaning all into it. And so, anyway, and I got my son home from college and did his cheek, and I texted him when I got the results, and like there's zero per chance percent chance of turn paternity. I'm thinking, at least say a face and be like, you messed up the test, you know, like you gamed it or, you know, whatever. Like, say a lie, say a you know, whether it's something anything. But no, they just said things for telling us. So they had already connected, they had already connected with the other guy. But either way, relatable story. Everybody likes me better now because my son's a hoe.

SPEAKER_05:

See how see what happens when you figure out this whole avatar business? You too could be driving up 95 confronting some young lady who's claiming her child.

SPEAKER_03:

I was totally nice. I was totally nice the whole time. Anyway, but anyway, but the micro niche mastery strategy, it's so good when you can just talk to your people. And I just want to encourage you guys. She has brilliantly micro-niched her actual practice, but you can also micro-niche your content, right? So, like I can write one article, like you guys get an article from me usually every month in the GLM newsletter, and then I can take that and repurpose that for in a in a few months for like the chiropractic magazine, for therapists, for you know what I'm saying? So you can actually micro-niche your content and not even just your practice. You know, for instance, like my visibility stuff, it works no matter what industry you're in. But when I write for Ben and Brian, I'm going to use attorney language. When I write for, you know, uh chiroeconomics, I'm going to use different language. Um, anyway, so I just, you know, micro-niche your practice and or micro-niche your content. It just is a little bit of extra work and it really um makes a difference. I can't tell you one time, um, I don't know if you were at this event, I had an event in Nashville, Tennessee. Were you with me? And um, so I always like fill my events to be um the most profitable way for me to fill them, is I get like 30% lifers who have been with me, like um Janine, 30% who are active members, and then 30% who are kind of new, but they're just within driving distance of the um of the event. And that I found this is the best uh breakdown for um a live event. And there was a lady in there who was an act, she was in private practice physician. She did not take insurance. Everything was self-pay with her. And so she sat that through like three days of the Michelle show. And on the third day, she raises her hand and she says, Well, that's it's been great. And she says, but none of it applies to me because I don't sell anything. And I'm like, it it just it struck me so crazy because I'm like, oh my God, you sell every day or you don't eat, you know? Um, but I hadn't used patient, right? I didn't like I always use client or customer or whatever. And so um anyway, I really hated that for her because she missed out you, but it was she missed out because of my failure to niche down some of my language.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. The other thing I think one of the big questions is, for example, if you're only focusing on men, does that mean that women won't come through the door? So one of the other things that um Michelle and I worked on was a book called Five Things She's Doing to Prepare for Divorce. It's on Amazon, don't look for it. I think I have one sale. But anyway, anyway, or maybe I should ask you to look for it. But um, one of the things that I found interesting was that I have more women coming in because they want to know what are the secrets that you're telling the men. I'm like, what? Or, you know, at one point, a few of my friends read the book and they were like, okay, you're giving up the secrets. I'm like, the secrets? What are we doing? So I've never felt like just because I'm niching, that that automatically excludes me from other potential clients. So I have just as many women that come into my office as I do men. I would say that there's probably more men than women, but it's it's very close. So niching doesn't necessarily mean exclusion, I think is is what I wanted to share.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. I mean, I run an organization called Women Who Wow, and I'll get men say, like, can I join? And like if your wife is gonna see a you know credit card charge to women who wow and it's not an issue, you're welcome. Right. We do play it's raining men when they come in to a live event, but we just have some fun with them. And so yeah, even something as like, you know, gaudily female as Women Who Wow, it we still get men who are active, who are really active members.

SPEAKER_05:

And it, I mean, we're gonna do QA, of course, at the end, but you know, if at any point you want to share some of your stories or let us know how you know some of the things that we're talking about have impacted your practice, please let us know. We have the little cube that we can pass around. All right, let's see what else we got.

SPEAKER_03:

All right.

SPEAKER_05:

Visibility.

SPEAKER_03:

Surround sound visibility, right? Um, you guys will meet um Dan Kennedy later on today. He's uh fabulous. I would definitely not be here if I didn't um meet Dan Kennedy so, so early in my journey. I will say that if anybody's newer in their um private practice or, you know, you're there's things that they seem like are further down the road for you. The way I grew um to my first million dollar year was I took like the principles and I I kind of Michelized it, right? Like, what can I afford to do right now? Like what can I do? Like back then the big thing was like buying lists and printing stuff, like, you know, not with a$50 budget, you know. So I just kind of um looked for the ways that I could apply the principles, right? The principles never change. So anyway, I just wanted to say that, you know, big plug for Dan. I think he'll be here at three o'clock today. Brilliant. And um, you'll get so much um from him. But um surround sound visibility, Dan used to say he you want people talking about you going up and down the elevator, right? You want everybody being like, hey, yeah, have you heard about blah, blah, blah. I just got um, I was talking to somebody this morning, and I run this um non-marketed, it's invite-only media event in New York City every August. And it's it's the most exclusive. I mean, I love it. It's my own, but it has the top, top producers and editors from the top, top shows and magazines. And we will kick out some big editors if they do not like do stories on our people. So it's only 25 people pitching. And this is something that I don't even talk about, right? And somebody said, Hey, I've been hearing about your event in New York City. Everybody's saying it's the real deal. I'm like, absolutely it is, right? You want people talking about you, um, but you don't just want to hope for it, right? Um, you want to be make sure that you are manufacturing your own visibility, right? And I just want to say like um virality, like going viral is luck, right? And a lot of people spend time on that. I don't know if you guys do, but it's like chasing trends and like use this trending music or whatever. I can't stand that because if you're chasing a trend, it's like already you're behind, you're following someone, you're like trying to catch up. Like, I just hate the whole like vibe of that visibility you can manufacture um on your own terms. So, and when I say media, just to be clear, like I use the old school definition media. So media isn't like just the people who come to my event like Tamron Hall show and Drew Barrymore and Fox News and all that. I say media and I mean like wherever your message shows up. It can be a podcast, it can be an industry, you know, a magazine article, you know, you can show up in an industry journal, you can be speaking on stage. Like that's to me when I use media to create surround sound visibility where your ideal clients and referral sources are talking about you, then you want to answer these questions. So the first one is where should you be showing up? Right? Where should your name be shared and whispered among um people that are ideal for you? So you want to really be intentional about that. And um, so for like women entrepreneurs, I'm not going to try to get on like the top women entrepreneur podcasts. Number one, they're gonna see me as a competitor. And number two, some of the biggest, most famous podcasts, their audiences are actually commercialized, right? They tune out the guest and the offer. I found it much more profitable to be on the smaller podcasts who haven't been like, you know, commercialized out. So you want to make sure you're you're being intentional. Get a whole list, get two pages. Where should you be showing up? Different industries, different audiences, different groups, like whatever is is relevant for you. And um, who should be talking um to their clients about you? And then I want you to create a media answer for that, right? It's media, like media is leverage, right? We can't show up everywhere. I built my entire business. Um, my husband was um, he was really uh weird about me traveling for a while. He doesn't like planes, and so I was like kind of landlocked, and I had young kids, obviously, at the time. And so I had to figure out ways where I could show up very, very intentionally in other people's like I say, you know, other people's stages and pages, and I roll my own eyes because I'm Sysica saying it. I actually created while exponential. Other people's stages and pages are phenomenal. You come in with an introduction, you come in with an implied endorsement, and there's so many different ways to to use that media.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I was also gonna say that, you know, the surround sound visibility is it also can be reputational as well. So, you know, I talked earlier about what are people saying about you in your communities and things like that. One of the things that, and it's it's the little things that you don't really pay attention to that count for a lot of people. So one of the things that I do in my office is there's a special way that my conference room is set up. Now I know we do virtual appointments and things like that, but you know, one of the things that my intake person has to find out from the uh potential client is what's their favorite music, what's their favorite snack, things like that. So when they come in the office, there's a welcome sign, right? I'm going somewhere with this story. So there's a welcome sign, right? They go into their, into the conference room, there's a 10 card. All of this stuff I learned here. There's a 10 card so they know where to sit. They have pen, paper, all of that ready to go. And we have whatever type of music they like playing, right? So if it's jazz, it's jazz. If it's RB, it's RB. If it's what's the new pop, K pop? Is that what it's called? What whatever that is? That right. Kelly's like, yeah, I hear it all the time. But in any event, so that's and for me as a family law attorney, I've got to get them to come down because they're coming in the office. They're gonna have to, you know, they believe, bear their soul to me. And I need them to get that anxiety and that stress down to the level where I can figure out how I can help them. So I've been doing that for a while. One time for whatever reason, we forgot to have the setup the way that we normally do. Person came in, sat down in the conference room, I start talking, and she was like, you know, I heard about these welcome signs and, you know, the music playing and the snacks and the food. And I was like, you're absolutely right. I said, excuse me for one moment. I actually made her go back outside of the office. I set everything up and I had her come back in. She's like, okay. So reputationally, you know, if you start doing things and people are appreciating it, and you know, you're getting a reputation for being the attorney that has the welcome sign in her office, you know, that is also a way to expand your visibility, I think, as well.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that. And what I love most about that is how intentional it is. Like, so I just um, you know, I never feel lucky and I don't want to depend on luck, you know. So like anything that I want in my business, in my life, like I'm going to manufacture it. I'm going to take, like, I don't really believe in like the law of attraction. I'm more like the law of creation, right? So like I'm going to intentionally create the uh reality that I want to live in to whatever it's to whatever degree is possible. And in life, like we're really limited there. But in business, like we can do this, like to intentionally plant the seed, plant the reputation, build it. And so for me, I think I'll, I guess I'll close on anything that you want, whether it's visibility or more clients or like whatever you want. Intentionally choreograph it, right? We spend a lot of time learning about new tech techniques and new this and new that and what's trending and all this. And it's like, listen, what do you want? Right. What do you want to have happen in your practice? And then, like, how can you manufacture or choreograph that, right? Like get intentional about that. Keep it simple. Um, the tools and all that will always change, but strategy is what wins the game, right? Really, real intentional strategy.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay. Don't do what's popular, do what's profitable.

unknown:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So a big thing for me is measurement. I I've always said, like, you know, Weight Watchers didn't win the weight loss game for so long because they had like some amazing diet. The diet still sucked, right? Like they won because they had a scale and they had the audacity to like put it in public and make you step on it. To be fair, I've never been to a Weight Watcher Watchers meeting because I ain't stepping on that scale. Right. I'm just, yeah. As is obvious. But I'm like, you know, they won because they measured. And so to me, it's like I'm always going to measure stuff because I want to know what's working. I don't want to guess what's working. I don't want to be overwhelmed and then be like, I know I've got to implement a video strategy and I'm going to add it to my overwhelming plate. I measure everything so that I know what works. I can do more of what works, and then less of what doesn't work so I can spend time with my husband or my grandkids or my kids who I still like just less.

SPEAKER_05:

And it becomes organic. Too right, it just automatically happens. And initially, you're doing all these things. You're like, okay, I'm trying to find my niche, I'm trying to do this, I'm trying to do that, and you get caught up in the process, right? And then as you put things in place, you then start to see the results. It's like I don't have to like um, you know, bite my nails because I don't know if I'm gonna have a client this month, because it automatically starts to generate on its own, which is what we always want, right? So, you know, of course, when I started my practice, there were times where I'm like, there's nobody coming through the door. What am I gonna do? Right. But now, and I'm not saying that there's not slower times, but there's not a time where I can actually look at and say, no one came through the door, right? Um, and it's all because you're intentional. You get known for certain things and the way that you handle your cases, your clients, um, all of that. I keep going back to reputation, but it's so important. And then, you know, it it just automatically, organically starts to happen.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. So any questions? I think we have eight minutes. So do you guys have any um questions? Questions, comments, or even like objections. I tried that, it didn't work.

SPEAKER_05:

Right. Right, right, right. Or tell me, tell us something that you're using, or maybe you need help with trying to figure out what your niche is, or everybody knows their niche already.

SPEAKER_03:

I think we did such an amazing job. That's what it is that they couldn't possibly.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean, yeah, there's no no questions or comments whatsoever.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Hi.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay, yes. Steph.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm marketing an intake for Parks Ziggler. We have 14 attorneys, three offices. Who? Parks Ziggler.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh my god, I love them. So thank you. Yeah, Shelly. She loves all of all of the firms, by the way.

SPEAKER_04:

She is a killer. Yeah, she's amazing. Anyway, uh, my comment is more about when what I did before I came into marketing and legal and onto marketing and management firm for 24 years.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_04:

And I loved it. But you're so right about what you're saying. Now, when I had my company, all I did was work off referrals. I had zero marketing plan. So when COVID came along, I really didn't have a leg.

SPEAKER_05:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

And I had to really shift what I was doing. That said, I also didn't have an intentional referral process. It was literally, I'm sitting back accepting whatever comes to me.

SPEAKER_03:

Like how did COVID change that?

SPEAKER_04:

Um, so I lived in Virginia and businesses were just really scared. My clients were scared when COVID started. The cities were shutting down, people weren't doing anything, going anywhere. Several of the companies uh that I worked with were nonprofits. So kids weren't doing events, grants weren't happening, things weren't clicking, and I started to lose contracts. So then moved to Florida, restarted because Florida was open. I guess they didn't care about people dying down there. You know, they were just like, yeah, everybody go outside. And that was great, but I still didn't have a purposeful referral process. And at the firm now, I would say 65% of our business is referral, but we still don't have a referral process. So it really spoke to me. I was like, there's all these ways that we can do it. So I just wanted to say thank you for that, really.

SPEAKER_05:

And we talked about keeping it simple. Thank you, card. You know, can I take you to lunch? You know, the basics. And what content needs do they have?

SPEAKER_03:

Yep.

SPEAKER_04:

Right?

unknown:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04:

I really like that because the contents we just put in a studio in our office, a full-on studio, lights. Oh, you mentioned that.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And what if we could get with attorneys that don't practice like PI or whatever and say, hey, come on in, we'll shoot all your stuff for you. Like we'll do it for you. Marketing department will do it for you, but hey, can you slide?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, or chiropractors or well, I didn't think of that. They need space too, right? That's even better. Thank you. Anyone else? I know there's some questions or comments out there. Okay. We're just gonna get this cube to you so everyone can hear you. I think it's soft so that it can be tossed around. I didn't want to take a chance.

SPEAKER_02:

Michelle, it's really impressive that you started your business with nothing and grew it so successfully. Can you tell us how you got through some of the challenges you faced doing?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So um, it's less impressive when you realize I had no other option, right? So um I married then and now to a public school teacher. Um, we had just graduated from college. Um, we had$213. That wasn't savings. Like we had intentionally saved that much up over however long, right? And I was um having was pregnant with my first kid, and I just was not, and there's no no judgment on any other woman. I just wanted to be home with the kid, but it was 26 years ago. So, like you heard rumors of people working from home, but you like didn't know anyone. And so the rumors were like they licked envelopes or or whatever. So I I build myself that first year as an at-home secretary because the term virtual assistant hadn't been created yet. And I was limited even in that because I didn't have a sitter. So, and my kids were back to back. And so I had to um I couldn't do anything where it required phone calls. Email wasn't really even a thing. I um grew that business. I made$63,000 my first year, which I didn't even know that was good. It's just like what I needed to make. And so I took my wedding list because I didn't have a list, but I learned from like Dan Kennedy, like you have a list. I'm like, why have my wedding list? And I have everybody's address on it because you emailed out your wedding invite. And so I instinctively knew like I um emailed out like a letter. I mailed 10 a week. That was like most of the$50 was spent on stamps because I borrowed my aunt's printer and stuff. But I sent out 10 letters a week. The next week I followed up on those 10 letters, and then I mailed 10 more letters. And so I instinctively knew like everything was I had to follow up on. And um, there's definitely been some scarier times in my business, but I I will tell you that I've never felt necessarily scared of financially because I always know how to make money, right? Like, I mean, even like there was a time my first year, I call it like my anything for money tour. And like I did like, um I didn't do Santa Claus in my house. So like I would do like Santa Claus letters for little kids, you know, and like the kids would like stuff the envelope for me and you know, we'd sell that and pay for Christmas. Like I would do like I uh typed up divorce depositions for a local attorney. Like I, you know, back then there were lots of little little things you could do like that. I just kind of cobbled together that um$63,000. And so, but when you when you don't depend on like luck or you know, not just like I get it from referral, but here's how I get it from referral, then it's almost like I had a granddad who was a drunk and his I always called him Bruce, right? Never called him granddad. And he would sometimes come over to the house and he would um fall asleep on the couch. And he always had coins in his pockets, right? And then he'd fall asleep and then the coins would fall into the couch. And so um my parents didn't have money. So when my brother and I, like the ice cream man, you know, would come around and like we didn't bother like running and trying to find our parents for the ice cream money. We went to the couch, we went to the couch, right? Because that's where the money was. And so in my business, like it's been quite uh it's been a confidence booster because I measure things just because I don't want to waste time, right? And and so I always know where the couch is. I always know where I can go to um to get to get money, fast money, big money, like whatever it is that that I need. And the other thing, and I don't know if Dan will talk about this, like I live pretty simply, you know what I'm saying? Like I don't have like a big um, I don't know, nut to crack, I guess. Um, and that's intentional too. Um, it's how I think a lot of like business coaches or people leading um, you know, masterminds and stuff like that. I mean, they are they are up to their eyeballs in debt that I can't even fathom sleeping under. Like I can't do that. And so that's another way like I didn't, I I got through in times that were where I could um, you know, kind of change ship and change course. I I did the at-home secretary thing. I opened an HR business for a while. I had no HR experience. I did have an HR degree and nobody asked. And so like I did that for a little while and I hated it. And so I shut it down. I could have like hired other people to run, it was quite successful, but I just shut it down and I I tried my hand as a life coach, which you can imagine that. Like the problem is I'm a great marketer, so I was found out for being a really crappy life coach. Quick, it was really hard. Like they people would say something like, I'm like, we talked about that last week, right? Like it's something really traumatic. So patience was not my virtue.

SPEAKER_05:

Absolutely. So here's our contact information. We would love to continue the conversation past today. It looks like our time is. Oh, good. Sorry. That's okay. Um, and so thank you everyone for participating. I'll be hanging out, I'll be here for the rest of the day. So if you see one of us, just grab us and we can continue the conversation. Thank you for attending.

SPEAKER_03:

Awesome. See you guys.

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Brian Glass

Host