Second Rule of Marketing: Build a Moat Before Consolidation Hits | Dan Kennedy pt. 2

If Part 1 made you want to rethink your marketing, Part 2 is where Dan Kennedy gets dangerously practical.

This episode picks up live from the Great Legal Marketing Summit (October 2025) with Dan going deeper on the stuff most lawyers ignore because it feels “old school” or “too much work.” Direct mail. Personal follow-up. Real client engagement that does not look like every other firm’s same five ads and the same three landing pages. The kind of marketing that makes you the obvious choice because you are not playing the same game as everyone else. 

Consolidation is coming. More money is moving into legal. More companies are buying up attention, platforms, and distribution. And that reality changes what “growth” even means for a small firm. You can either get swept into the noise, or you can build something durable with a strategy and a circle of people who are testing what works. 

That’s where the conversation lands at the end. Dan talks about the value of mastermind groups, not as a trendy thing, but as a place to borrow the best experiments, skip expensive mistakes, and keep momentum when the market shifts. If you have been feeling like your marketing is fine but fragile, this episode will click. 

Want the notes from this conversation and the rest of the Summit sessions? Grab them at glmsummitnotes.com.

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Brian Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury lawyer in Fairfax, Virginia.  He is passionate about living a life of his own design and looking for answers to solutions outside of the legal field.  This podcast is his effort to share that passion with others.

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Transcript

Welcome Back & Episode Context

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello my friends and welcome back to Life Beyond the Briefs, the number one podcast for lawyers choosing to live lives of their own design and build the kind of practices they actually like showing up to on Monday. This is part two of a conversation with Dan Kennedy. If you missed last week's episode, go back and check out part one first, because there are nuggets there that you will want to listen to before you dive into part two. As many of you know, Dan Kennedy spoke at our Great Legal Marketing Summit in October of 2025. Turns out to be roughly a once-a-year engagement now that you can get Dan out of his house in Cleveland and onto a stage. And there's a lot of invaluable things in this episode. Mostly talking about the kind of things that Dan is usually talking about differentiating yourself in marketing and the use of direct mail and personalized client engagement tools to increase the number of clients in your law firm, help you make more money, help you make more profit. And of course, money and profit allows us to do the kinds of things with our lives that we actually are meant to do. The tail end of this episode, Dan discusses the value of mastermind groups for the benefit of shared learning and strategic experimentation, especially in an age when VC money is coming into law firms. We see the Dudley DeBausier acquisition a couple of weeks ago. You see Herringbone Digital or Herringbone Media buying up a couple of SEO companies. The consolidation is coming, folks, and uh either you're gonna get consolidated or you can find a group of like-minded people who are building law firms and creating sustainable businesses in the long run. If you are interested in joining a mastermind group, we have some spots available on the Great Lou Marketing Mastermind. You can reach out to me to discuss that. As always, if you want the notes from this conversation and every other session at our Great Lou Marketing Summit, you head over to GLM Summitnotes.com, available for download for free. I'm happy to ship you a hard copy. I think you just cover the cost of shipping. And if you want to buy the videos of all of the sessions, it's like 16, 17, 18 sessions, probably 24 hours of programming. It's really good stuff. Uh it's available for purchase after you download. Without further ado, I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Big Companies Lose To Nimble Firms

The Reverse Phone Script & Incentives

Personalization At Scale Beats Bureaucracy

SPEAKER_00 2:04

The law that you practice is just the ante to be at the poker table. It's the deliverable, it's not the business. The business is the marketing of the deliverable. And the marketing means a lot more than does the deliverable. Every year at Christmas time, the department stores bring out appliances you can't sell any other time of year that you buy for your aunt. You know, the person you can't think of what to give. She'll love this waffle maker that also sings Christmas songs. Well, that was the George Foreman grill. For 25 years, it sold a little bit every year, just enough to exist. It only got brought out at Christmas time, and people bought it because they're buying it for an aunt. They don't know what else to get. Until a marketer got a hold of this thing, and then it made George alone$100 million. It ain't the grill. Sorry, it's not. Okay. So it's the marketing of your in the marketing business. And it's not about I got to find time for the leftover time to do the marketing. No, no, no, no, no. You find the leftover time to do the law. The time to do the marketing has to be sacrosanct. It just has to be locked in place, blocked. Here's what I'm going to do. Now let's look at the rest of the calendar. So the big companies lose. So anyway, so five or six years ago, Greg calls me. He says, I'm college just to vent, because I can't vet about this with anybody else. He says, We're a drug marketing company. We're a direct response advertising company. That's what we are. He said, I've completely lost control of this fact. We're hiring people right out of college and we're with marketing degrees and business degrees. And I can't get any of them to do direct marketing. What do I do? Start with the A's, fire them visibly, and keep firing them until somebody wants to do direct marketing. I mean, what it's your company. You're right, who's signing the bottom of the check here? It's not like they get a choice. I mean, here's our system, right? Here's how we do a show. No, we don't put logos all over it, dimwits. That's not what we're doing. And if you put a logo on it, boom, out you go. Next. So the big, you have to understand you can't be scared of a big company because it's almost the government. It's this bureaucratic, slow-moving, throw money at it entity that the bigger it gets, the more dumb people it hides, until often it calcifies. And the board finally like fires everybody or it goes broke or whatever. This is the history of American business. And in every niche where the big has invaded, um, the big has retreated. So it's already happened in dentistry, the whole private equity thing. Say the rules changed. You don't have to be a dentist to own a practice. The dentist has to own the patient file. But you got so P can come in and buy up all these practices and standardize everything they do and fire all the humans that everybody likes. And so this happened, I don't know, three, four years ago in a big way. And they're already retreating because it's easier to buy them than it is to run them. And it turns out humans prefer dealing with humans, not big fat corporations. So you should never be scared of that. I've been around a fair number of Fortune 500 CEOs. And I don't think any of them would last a week running a small brick and order brick and mortar business. I don't think they'd last a week. Many of them have come up from the finance side, not the marketing and sales side. They're giant glorified bean counters. I mean, when you look at the performance of some of these companies, it shows. So there's a place for, in your niche, the small estate planning office, the small personal injury, the workers' comp practice, the immigration practice, certainly the divorce practice, the DUI practice. So years ago, we had a mastermind member, a DUI attorney, I won't name them, I guess, in Vegas. Fairly good-sized practice. And I taught him the reverse phone script, meaning capture name, address, phone number, fax number from customer heads. Every caller. Before you answered their questions or scheduled an appointment. The first thing we do is capture information. Because we can't do follow-up if we don't have information. And there's as much money in the appointment, no sale, in the call, no appointment, and appointment, no sale as there is in the easy ones. So you leave half your money on the floor just by not doing this. So I taught it to them. It comes from the I got it from the auto parts store business, by the way. See, it doesn't matter. Business is business. The basics of business, which you essentially learned. See, it doesn't matter if it's a chiropractor or it's an attorney, the process is the same. Somebody's got to get somebody into an office for a consultative, examination, agnostic conversation and a presentation and a close. So I got it from the auto parts business. So I taught it to this attorney, and he brought his staff in. And his staff included uh one of these battle axe births. You know, she's been there forever, and she's the only one who knows where the paper clips are. And every every time they hire a new staff person, she kills them within six months because she's because she's per turf. That's right, you know. And she is killing this from the word go, right? Nobody's gonna give us these numbers. So they run this for a week, and of course, nobody will give them the information, and she is proven right, and he doesn't have a proper the incoming call from the potential client does not get handed off to the one person who likes doing them and is good at it. It's like whoever takes the call takes the call. So there's three people at his front desk. So we so I say, okay, let's try this experiment. For every full contact that they get, they get 20 bucks. And at the end of the day, you go out there and hand out cash. You climb up on a box, you take the forms, you hand out the 20 hours. Magically. Magically overnight. Overnight. The clouds parted above this part of Vegas, and everybody provided their full contact information. Now you gotta do something with it when you get it, right? Data's useless if you don't. But but the big company will never do that. Never. But you can, you can send a personal note in a FedEx the same night you captured that information, so they get it the next day. And boy, look how responsive these people are to me. They they actually may really care. And there's a note that says Alan and Betty, and you see you can do that, okay? A big company is not, they maybe could do it, but they don't want to do it. That's not the business they're in. But you could be in that business.

Tackling Complexity And Media Overload

SPEAKER_02 9:18

That's why we have Susie, our director of happiness. Stand up and raise your hand. That's why that stuff happens. That's why over 83% of our money at our law firm comes because somebody mentioned our name, in large part because this is how we, Brian and I, are competing with all the big, all the big money who, again, like Dan, we don't even notice them. Let me ask you this. We're down to about 26 minutes. One of the challenges of coming to an event like this and then leaving is, you know, tons of information, tons of notes, tons of ideas, the whole complexity, and you you've you've alluded to this during this conversation. Like the world is a lot more complex than when I found you and was figuring out how to build a better yellow page ad because I wasn't, I didn't have enough money to do TV. And those are really the two media for lawyers. But how can lawyers like our group really wrap arms around complexity, figure out fastest what works, what doesn't work, in order to be able to make your families happy? Uh, you know, the lights go off in our office at five o'clock, no one's on weekends, no fires are being put out, and you know, we're making more money than ever. I sort of have figured this out along the way, but I'm curious because you've worked with so many owners and folks across industry, just like this group, they just happen to be delivering a different service. So, what's the best way for folks to conquer the increasing complexity of life, business, and marketing?

The Case For Out-Of-Favor Media

Niching Down For Moat And Margin

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Well, so the biggest complexity is the proliferation of media. And if anybody lets themselves get trapped inside the digital world, trying to keep up with every media where somebody else in your business might be, and gee, we want to be on there. Okay, this will kill you. Okay. So first of all, I brought some stats. Okay, it's the only notes I brought. On Instagram, there are 95 million photos and images added every day. 95 million a day. On Twitter X, there are 500 million posts every day. On Facebook, there are 4 million gigabytes added every day. I have no working idea what that is, but I believe it's a shit ton of stuff. On YouTube, there are 360 hours of video added every day. Excuse me, every minute. I thought that number was low. 360 hours of video added every minute. Email delivery. So some of the big deliverers, 2024 to 2025, deliverability is down 27%. Admitted. Amazon's SES is down 15%. Then the inbox providers are also killing it. Google Workspace acceptance is down 10%. Outlook is down 22%. Office 365 is down 27%. Then there's a consumer revolt. So 40% unsubscribe from brand emails every week. Every week. 56% unsubscribe if they get more than four emails from an entity in a 30-day period. They're gone. 46% of all marketing emails never reach the recipient because they're diverted as spam, mostly without the sender knowing it. They're gone. Okay. So we had this problem 20 years ago with mail. The postal carriers, there was so much quote quote junk mail. Postal carriers were delivering all of it on their route to the dumpster behind the Dunkin' Donuts all at one time. Bulk mail was useless. And even first class was imperil. Okay. We don't have that problem right now, by the way. The problem is moved over here. Now, yes, you're going to narrow it. Okay. They're not all going to pay any attention to an attorney. I get that. However, this is the swamp you're trying to keep up with and be noticed in if you are playing there. This is a singles dance with 400 women there and three guys. That's good. But if it's a singles dance with 400 guys and three women, that's bad. That is really bad. What are you going to do to stand out? Stand on your head? I mean what? Right? So this is this is a giant suck of time and energy and money. And it's not to say, like I've I have a client, 60 in play clinics, do it very well with Facebook. But it's like a full-time job for a team of people. It's marketing as a verb, not having a marketing asset. See, a marketing asset is evergreen, at least for a long period of time, that you have places you can use it and you can lock it in place and you can set it and forget it, like Ron Papel used to say about the kitchen appliance, and it just produces every day. Well, that's not what most of this is, right? So part of the answer to your question is somehow you want to stand apart, stand alone, and say something nobody else is saying. So this begs being in media, that is out of favor. It's not to say you don't want to be in some of the media that is in favor, but this begs being in media out of favor. I'm dragging my 60 clinic client kicking and screaming into direct mail and into television, local infomercial, half hour, uh, because uh only clear choice is there. And they're a big dumb company. I can beat them. But on Facebook, yeah, they're doing okay there, but every week there's another competitor, there's another copycat, everything they're doing is visible, okay, and everything they're doing is cheap. So the barrier to entry pretty much doesn't exist, right? You know, this from from this. What did you tell me when you started there was three, and now there's three thousand six hundred and seventeen lawyer copies?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

I was the first and followed shortly thereafter by Ken and a few other disciples from you, and now they're all over the place.

Targeting By Life Events And Households

Mailboxes Over Inboxes For Attention

Differentiate Or Die: Strategy Pillars

Masterminds For Speed And Accountability

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Yeah, they're all over the place. Gee, we we we're not making any money this month in the law practice. Let's coach. I mean, and that happens in every niche. A lawyer. Every niche, pretty much. Um, so now let's think about look at what everybody else is doing, and let's not do that. Let's think about what we might do that they won't do, where we can have an advantage. So, one, we can niche, and we can niche pretty specific. For example, I have a wealth management client. He does some broadcast media. You'll see him on Fox Business a little bit as a guest, but his wealth management company is for people who are in the process of selling or have sold a company for at least$30 million. That's it. That's all he wants. That's how that's all he takes. That's how narrow he is. And all of his collateral, his books, his media, everything he does is to attract them. They throw a lot back because when he does, when he appears on Fox, he gets inquiries from people that are not that. And they are told, sorry, but you know, we're not for you and you're not for us. And so he's narrow. Nobody yet has copied him because, of course, they think impossible. Well, impossible. And why would you narrow your market? Why would you not take Aunt Susie if she has three million dollars, right? So he hasn't been copycatted yet. And this is our sixth year together, and it's 15th. If you know anything about financial advisor practices, this is the second year in a row he's added$300 million of new of new money on under management, and it's a boutique kind of business. And so the copycat thing is pretty small, right? We can try and be predictive, like I said to you. Let's say you're gonna you got a fairly affluent neighborhood you want to market to, and um uh you're you're a PI attorney. Well, so the house that has teenage drivers, the odds of them having a car wreck are much higher than the house without teenage drivers. I don't know the exact percentage, but common sense tells me I have grandkids, I've seen teenage drivers. I was one, and I have a memory. I was doing everything behind that wheel but driving the whole first year I had the car, and we still had bench seats, just to give you an idea of some of what was going on behind that wheel. And you want to talk about distracted driving, that's distracted driving. So if I was gonna start a farm area and farm it with communication on an ongoing basis to make me the known guy and offer books and whatever, I would get only the homes that had teenagers. And if I had to drive the neighborhood, if I couldn't get it any other way, if I had to drive the neighborhood at about four or five o'clock in the afternoon, count the cars, look for a basketball hoop, and write down the address, that's what I would do. Now, my lead generation gets to be specific. We have sent you this letter because we know you have teenage drivers in your house. Hopefully you could remember when you were a teenager. Guess what? It's worse. They got more ways to be a distracted driver. And we want to send you the guide to handling your teenager's car accident. Everything you need to know before you talk to a lawyer, before you talk to the insurance guy, before you sign any papers, and before your kid talks to anybody. You should know this in advance. Well, now I've started. So now if they reply, they've raised their hand and they've said, you're right, we got teenage drivers. We know at least one of them is a crazy lunatic, and we're open to getting some information to help us. Now, if we keep communicating with those people, and they got three teenagers in the house, I got five chances of somebody being in a car wreck today, right? If it's just Carla in her condo, I got one chance of somebody being in a car wreck today. How do I want to play my odds? We uh I had an attorney I worked with closely years ago on an Alzheimer's Law practice. Yes, uh, Bill Hammond. And so we positioned the practice as all about Alzheimer's Law. And we actually were able to mass market. So at first we were marketed through hospitals and assisted living care people, and you know, we were like second. And I said, look, here's our age demographics, and here's what's happening in America. So the odds are really good in a neighborhood that everybody's got a relative. It may not be them, it may not be in their house, but they got somebody who's already showing, you know, uh-oh. They put their shoes away in the refrigerator. This probably means something. So let's use everydoor mail. And we'll just say if anybody in your family is starting to have memory problems, you probably don't know it, but there's all kinds of legal and financial ramifications if and when the day comes to a formal Alzheimer's diagnosis and perhaps having to put this person in a facility. The time to read the free guide and know about this is the first time you see signs of decline when it becomes so serious, everybody's having interventions. We will set of course the case size, so we can live with statistical lousy response, but good ROI and good income on the mailing. Now let's fast forward that to today. Bill's dead, I have no idea who's still, I don't know. But if somebody goes to Google and they type in Alzheimer's Law, or worse, Alzheimer's, what do you think happens to them? You should know what happens to them. They get targeted. Well, first of all, they get sucked into a vortex of twenty thousand. And that's all gonna change, by the way, pretty quick, and that's something else everybody ought to know. Google search is endangered. But right now, they're going to get sucked into a vortex and then they're going to get retargeted. So now they're going to be pursued as they roam around this vortex trying to figure out everything that is that is about this. They may even get lost forever. Be at your evening seminar, they go home and they Google something and you never see them again. And when you call, the relatives tell you, I don't know. We haven't seen them in six weeks. They disappeared somewhere and they're lost and they can't find their way back. They're literally lost in space. There's another old reference for fans of television. Who can name who the mother was on Lost in Space? The actress. Anybody? Bingo. We have a winner. Boy, are you old. Yeah. And what was she on before Lost in Space? Yeah, she was the Milo Lassie. Good for you. Okay. So they're Lost in Space. Now let's compare that to what happens if they get a letter in the mail, like you got, that says if you have anybody in your family who is showing signs, right, then you should read this letter. And then we talk to them in four pages, six pages, eight pages, whatever we want to do, and we get them to request our guy. What's different? Well, we the only one that showed up. There's nothing else in their mailbox that day with that messaging. We're it. We're the only one. Secondly, 50 plus, which is who we want because their parents are about are having these problems, if they aren't, they read. They actually still like mail. They even prefer it. So if we can get them to take it in, not throw it out, start reading, we will have their unique attention while they read. They cannot push a button and go see chickens on surfboards with the intent of coming back. They can't. This is it. There's no buttons. You either read it or you don't. They can't do that. And if we do a decent job, they won't. Nobody wants to look forever to find something. They don't. That's why the AI replacement for search is so dangerous to Google. And Google bought a company yesterday for I forget how many megabillions and whatever the number was to try and cope with this because AI search, right, it only gives you one. And you don't get to describe your business. It describes your business, which commoditizes everybody. It makes it all the same. It's not going to write great direct response copy for the paragraph of the top three search-ranked law practices. It's not going to do that. So differentiation, which Jack Trout wrote, Jack Trout, great ad man, Lisa Trout, he wrote a book 25 years ago titled Differentiate or Die. If Jack was alive, the crisis that he wrote the book about, which is essentially how to differentiate yourself in an undifferentiated commoditized economy, is now a thousand times worse, which means really differentiate or die. So how do we differentiate ourselves, right? We differentiate ourselves by actual or perceived specialization, because people want what's exactly for themselves and their circumstances. We differentiate ourselves by other messaging. We differentiate ourselves by place strategy, by media strategy, and we differentiate ourselves by process. Those are our opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

And what Dan has just demonstrated, because you may sit there and go, well, he talked about every type of practice but mine. But what he's just now demonstrated is the very deep thinking that is involved in doing this really well without racing to the bank against a Morgan and Morgan. And this is what goes on all the time in our mastermind meetings, right? It is not just about like a top-level surface, do this, do that. And so, Dan, could you just talk for a moment about sort of the, you know, the world is complex. And each of us could go and split test each of 700 different marketing opportunities and advertising opportunities. But there is a speed to process that you have taught me. And obviously, I was in in your top-level group for a couple of years there and just took a ton away from that. But just talk for a moment, if you would, about the value of being in a room.

Shared Testing, Continuity, And Pricing

Real Masterminds Need Real Leadership

Closing Notes & Next Session Preview

SPEAKER_00 27:20

So, first of all, it forces attention to what's going to go on three times a year, four times a year, whatever in a room. Because nobody likes to show up and have done nothing and, you know, sort of be clueless. So it forces people to start to pay attention to the business aspects, the marketing aspects of what they do. Whether it's a niche group like you would run, or I ran what I called mixed breed of dog groups. So 18 people in a mastermind group, they were in 16 different businesses, right? Doesn't make any difference because we're dealing with process here. We're dealing with, right, and so it forces that. Secondly, it creates a level of competition and recognition that we all thrive on and we don't get much. The first book I wrote that was published. Family had a big party, you know, bottle of champagne with a label on it of the book cover. I got 36 books published. The reaction is sort of, what? Another one of those? I mean, huh? I had employees at one time, all the way up to 42. Never got a standing ovation. Not once. Never got any applause. And a lot of what we do will get the opposite. Your spouse, your staff, oh my God, that ugly thing. You're not going to put that in the mail, are you? Well, the ROI is 16 to 1. So yeah, I was kind of playing it on mail on that advantage. You know? So the right group gives us people to brag to and show off to who actually appreciate what we're doing, right? And see, we thrive on that. So the NFL, every single team, these are grown men playing a child's game, getting paid millions and millions and millions of dollars. After every game, somebody gets a game ball. They show the locker room on TV sometimes. Everybody gets a game ball. He blocked this guy six times. Everybody applauds. What the hell? Why? Because we need that. The six billion is okay, I'm making six billion. I'm making sixty billion. But now what? Right? And after the first, see, like the first few times that Taylor Swift came to a Kansas City game, she was like jumping up and down. If you just stayed upright. This was tremendous, right? When they turn the camera on her now, watch. She's sitting down, she's talking to the person next to her. It's like, you know, really? He caught another pass, great. I mean, so it creates that environment where there is healthy competition to discover something workable and get recognition for it for people who appreciate what you're doing. The third thing that you mentioned is there can be speed of discovery, right? Because if 18 people are trying nine things, we're going to have a better result two months from now than if one person is trying 18 things. And somebody is going to bumble into something if enough of them are trying enough stuff that you would never try in a million years on your own devices. But they will auto continuity, what's called continuity or forced continuity. So continuity, you guys all know, I think, because you have it done to you. Continuity is your credit card gets charged every month until you squeal stop for something. Newsletter subscription, and of course, the consumer businesses are all based on this. When you buy the crepe array stuff at the price on the, you're signing up for auto charge in a box of that glop every month until you stop. And forced continuity is it's tied that way. It's tied to a purchase, but you can't make the purchase without agreeing to the continuity, right? So this was nothing new. A book of the month club did it in the 1950s, food, brownie of the month, wine of the month. This is all around. But in our in the mastermind group I had of info marketers, so everybody, one way or another, is like a Ben with great legal marketing, most of them niched. We had a guy who was simplistically Ben to the mortgage industry. And he was selling a course, and then the next sale was the subscription to get stuff from him every month to help you in your mortgage business. And he sat in the meeting one day and he said, you know, we chase these people, we outbound phone them, we beat the crap out of them, and we could only get about a third of them to buy the subscription, the membership. So I've decided to just force them all to buy it. The only way they're gonna get the course is they're gonna agree to a year of membership and auto charge every month. And everybody, including me in the room, was at least skeptical. A few were that'll ever work, and you're gonna have legal problems and you're gonna it's gonna be a horror show. Your customer service is you know, all the way down to kind of just cringy, you know, like, yeah, I don't know. And to his credit, he said, I don't really care what any of you think. And he went home and he did it. And three months later, he's back, and rare for him, because he was not big on detail, he actually had numbers. Here's we started it the day I went home. Here's what happened, which was roughly a 10% decline in conversions and sales. But now you're starting with 100% in the continuity, and they were only losing a third of them. All these numbers are better. So he had the numbers. And so what about customer service problems? Nope. Here's the big letter we send them that explains what they're in and what's going to happen, reminding them of what they agreed to, and they don't bother us. And so now three of us did it. And next everybody did it. And it really became the industry norm of the Benz of the world and the non-bens that who market to mix breed of dog, like the company I created, it became the norm for all of us because the math worked better. Now we would, I don't know if we would ever have tested it. I don't know. If we hadn't had him and our group, I don't know if we ever would have tested this. Price testing. TV, I can tell you, and a lot of times nobody likes doing it because testing on TV is a pain in the butt with a half-hour show. But I rescued a show years ago that was dying at the at a$39 sale by switching it to three payments of$39. We got more conversions at three payments of$39 than we did at$39. Only two-thirds of them paid all three payments, but do the math. I mean, now if you don't test that, you don't know, right? In many cases, if you're trying to split test all sorts of stuff by yourself, they you're you're not gonna get there. But if a whole bunch of people are split testing different things and sharing, now the one caution I'll give, there are two kinds of mastermind groups. There are the ad hoc groups. Twelve people decide to get together three times a year at a resort they like to go to and spend half the time sitting in a room talking about their businesses. These are not real mastermind groups, and they will quickly descend into something else. These are complaint sessions, these are wild hair idea sessions, these are these are kids who have eaten too much candy and are locked in a room for three hours to talk to each other. That's what this is. The other kind has an owner, a guide, a leader who is credible, believable, knowledgeable, tough enough to keep a group focused and to guide its progress. That costs money. But those are the only ones that work. And I've seen a number of mastermind groups over 50 years doing this. And I have seen the ones where three leave and well, we'll just do that ourselves. And they get four or five people to come and join them. And mostly, in my case, they come back and they go, All right, damn it, you were right. We're sorry, and let us back in the thing that's actually productive. Is that what you wanted? Absolutely. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Okay, Dan, this has been awesome. So, as a reminder, tomorrow, Dan's actually coming back for a private luncheon with our mastermind members where you guys will be able to ask your questions tomorrow. Number one, number two, there are forms on the table. Brian and I have been talking about this a couple days we've been together. We'll be in the back of the room. Jay Henderson is up next. We're gonna push Jay back from four o'clock to four ten. Let's start there. And Jay's gonna tell you how to uh hire a superstar team, and he's someone that we rely on at Ben Glass Law, and many of our mastermind members have relied on for many years to get the hiring decisions right. But right now, how about a great big hand and a thank you for my friend Dan Kennedy? Thank you, everybody.