EP 97: Are SMART Goals, Habit Tracking, and "Locking In" Overrated?

Are SMART goals actually helping you change your behavior or just checking a box? In this episode, host Dr. Kasey Jo Orvidas and co-host Sarah Tierney play "overrated or underrated" with popular health and behavior change concepts, debating what actually works for long-term success versus what sounds good in theory but falls short in practice.

From SMART goals, to accountability buddies, to habit tracking and "locking in" for the new year, Kasey and Sarah unpack the psychology behind these strategies and share what coaches (and clients) should focus on instead.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why SMART goals don't work for weight loss and behavior change (and what to use instead)
• Do accountability partners actually work for fitness goals? The truth about when they help versus create dependence
• What's the difference between habit tracking and building actual habits, and why most people get this wrong

If you've ever wondered whether popular goal-setting strategies actually work, or if there's a better way to approach behavior change, this episode breaks down what's worth your time and what's just trendy advice that won't stick long-term.

Podcast Episode #13: SMARTER Goals

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Transcript

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Okay. That cleared it up, but also gave me a lot more questions, which is kind of how I feel too. Like Yeah, makes sense. Does it, does it though? Um, alright, I'm gonna need to play around with that one on my own. But yeah, it's the ideal, like what is the, the meat of the idealized version is the thing that could be problematic. I like the practice of thinking about. The idealized version of me, but also, uh, gosh, I'm not answering this very well. You stumped me. This is good though. I think you're, hello my friends, and welcome back to not another Mindset show. I'm your host, Dr. Casey Joe. My goal with this podcast is to take the science of mindset and behavior change and distill it down into actionable takeaways for you together. We're gonna. Unpack research around motivations, self-sabotage, willpower, and so much more. And we're going to take all of that and translate it into strategies you can immediately apply to your health, fitness, relationships, business, marketing clients, all of the things. But just to be clear, it's not all serious and sciency around here. We're gonna have a ton of fun too, and I'm so excited to share all of this with you. Alright, let's go ahead and get into the episode. Hello. Hello my friends. Welcome back to not another mindset show. We are back with Miss Sarah Tierney and we have kind of like a fun, interesting episode for you. We actually kind of thought of this on the fly quite literally an hour ago, and. We have decided that we are going to play like a little over or under. Is it, is it over? Under what? Like of importance? What's the word? Overrated. Overrated or underrated. Overrated or underrated. Yes. Of basically of importance when it comes to health behavior change specifically, and instead of us getting a list together, together, we actually both separately have our own list that we're going to ask each other and then have like. Many discussions on those things and share our perspectives. Although Sarah and I come from like the same realm of stuff, and Sarah has learned from me a lot over the years. I've also learned from her, and she's done a lot of her own studying and learning, and we often do have. Very, very, very similar perspectives, but like different ways of going about it or just different ways of seeing things, which honestly is why we decided to bring her on the podcast more because we were having these really great discussions and seeing things from different ways. But it's almost always in, like, Sarah, you can tell me if you don't agree, but I feel like it's almost always like, oh. Yeah, that makes sense because blah, blah, blah. And then you'll pick it up and be like, oh, and then what about this part? I'm like, yeah, that part too. So it's like we're agreeing, but we compliment each other for the most part. And maybe you guys will get some disagreements too, and then we'll really be able to spice it up. Um, so with that said, we're going to see. How many we can get through in maybe like 20 ish minutes or so here, and make sure we're not just like going back and forth on this for the next hour and a half because we definitely could also end up in that spot. So. Do you wanna start? Should I start? I'm like, I'm so curious to see what you put down. Oh, I'm so, well that makes me nervous because it's the first one and I'm like, well, I actually wanna say this because I know you have it on your list and I kind of wanna beat you to it because I know what you're gonna say. We have start with something easy and so do you wanna do it where I'll say it and then you give your over underrated and I'll follow up and then we'll switch off. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that sounds good. Casey, I'm cheating here, but I'm starting with it. Smart goals, that is, that one's a layup. I mean, she knows exactly what I'm gonna say. This is what's going on here. Um, so I think that SMART goals, and for those of you who aren't familiar with that, which I kind of am of the assumption that everybody knows, but have come across some people who are like, oh, I've never heard this framework before. I'm like, wow. I actually couldn't even tell you where. I heard it to begin with, but I just feel like it's been in my brain for like my entire life somehow. Um, but the original smart goal framework, and I actually learned this recently, I think it was developed in like 1981, so it has been around for a long time. And smart being specific, measurable. Attainable, realistic and time bound. Like every time it kinda like tests because I have my own framework, which we'll get into. But with smart goals, I think for health behavior change specifically, it is definitely overrated. And I think honestly probably overrated in general, like we're talking about something that was developed in 1981. Not to say that like something that was developed that long ago. Now we're talking like 50 years ago almost. Um. That that means it's automatically not relevant anymore. However, I think it can be updated specifically for health behavior change. So that said, I actually don't mind the first two pieces of the Smart Goal framework. I do have a smart goal framework, which I will walk you guys through and actually do have a, a full podcast episode on this. If you wanna hear a little bit more, since we're not gonna go in super in depth here, but. S for specific. I would like to keep, I think it's important, especially for health behavior change types of goals. Instead of just saying, I want to get healthier, we need to get more specific than that because it doesn't really give you a route to follow. Doesn't really give you anything to go off of like, what does that, what does that actually mean? And it means something different for everybody. So like specific, also like measurable. We actually do have a lot of research to support self-monitoring as being something that is really important if you're trying to change your behavior, if you're trying to pursue a goal. So measurable meaning like set a goal that you can actually monitor over time. You can see the progress happening or not happening, and then make adjustments accordingly. So I like those two. I don't love. Attainable simply because, okay, number one, there is some research to support this because we know, granted this was, I think it was one paper, but it may have been like a systematic review. I think of like a bunch of different studies that talks about people who lose weight and then are able to maintain it, and we always have. Thought in our head that you can't set these unrealistic goals for yourself because you're not ever gonna achieve it. And all of these things. And actually what this research showed is that an unrealistic weight loss goal was not a determinant for people to not maintain their weight. So whether or not they set an unrealistic weight loss goal actually had no, like, did not hinge on their. Actual outcomes and ability to maintain that loss over time. So that said too, then I kind of like go the other perspective too of like you think about some of the people who have made massive, massive successes in their lives has massive successes rather, and Okay, can go like Steve Jobs, Michael Jordan, all of these people. Do you think they were always just thinking about like what's most attainable and realistic, which is the next piece of the smart goal framework is attainable and realistic, which I also kind of feel like those two are the same thing. Like, aren't we talking about the same and like we only have like SMAR team, like that's five letters, right? They're, we only have five things in here and two of them of the five are basically the same thing. So I guess I can kind of talk about those together. Attainable and realistic. Like is that really what we should be always shooting for? Especially, yeah. When you think about people who have done crazy amazing things, I'm sure they were like shooting for the stars, you know? Um, so with that said. I based on the research, based on just like, especially with like weight loss goals or health behavior change goals in general. And also knowing that most people are walking around with a little bit of a fixed mindset on their capabilities. Like, are you really the best person to say what you're capable of or not?'cause they might just end up setting something that. Is almost far too easy. And if it's far too easy, then it's not really exciting and motivating to go after. Um, there's other research to support setting moderately challenging goals. So kind of like finding that middle ground where it feels like, oh, this is kind of like a challenge for me, but also it's not something that is like totally unrealistic. Like let's not try to lose a hundred pounds in 30 days. Right. Um. So that's my thought there. And then T of smart goals being time bound, I think especially when it comes to health behavior change, and if we're talking about weight loss, it's really hard to put a specific timeline on those things and. I would hate for someone to have like, okay, in six months, this is exactly how my habits and behaviors need to look and this is how my body needs to look or whatever, and then not achieve it. And then it feels like, okay, well I guess I'm not capable of doing this 'cause they didn't achieve it in that timeline. I actually, in my framework, I switch it to timely. So rather than being like a time bound goal, it's timely based on, okay, what's going on in your life right now? What's coming up in the next six to 12 months? What do you need to keep in mind and sort of just be like. Planning for like obstacles and hurdles in that way. So making sure your goals are timely. Um, I won't get into the other aspects of the smarter goal framework. I'll make you guys go listen to the full episode and especially for the sake of time, this is what I was I worried about too, but so anyway, long story short. Long short, I would say smart goals are definitely. Underrated or overrated. Sorry. Wow. They're definitely overrated when it comes to health behavior change. Do you agree? I do agree. And you know, for sake of time I'm not go, I wanna talk, but I won't, we should make this another podcast. Like, 'cause I had goal setting theory popped up and everything and there's some really good elements from that. I don't think goal setting theory is like gonna encompass everything that I love about goal setting. But, uh, I'll make a note of that when we move along. Yeah. Perfect. I think it's overrated for a lot of the reasons you mentioned too. And another podcast will be coming. Alright, perfect. Your turn. Okay, my turn Now I'm like, I'm looking at all of them like, Hmm, which one do I want to go with? No, I kind of, I kind of had them in like an order, but now I don't know. Um hmm. I'm gonna do one that I'm actually, yeah. I'm like genuinely curious about your perspective on, and that is accountability buddies. Ooh. Yeah. Um, so having someone to hold you accountable in your health behaviors that you're trying to pursue. Hmm. All right. I'm gonna go with accurately rated. Okay. Because say, because they, they are, they are useful. Um. If you know about self-determination theory and belongingness or relatedness, belongingness, social connection, being in an environment with other people who are normalizing what you wanna be doing can help you stick with whatever it is that you're trying to do and just help give you the reps and help it become like a normal part of your life if you are doing things. If you're trying to change a behavior and make that just a part of your life and you're completely relying on accountability to do it, that's where it gets sticky Sometimes accountability is not about changing a behavior, right? So Casey, if I needed accountability to like do something for work and I said, Hey, do you wanna do a, do you wanna do a Zoom call? And just like co-work, that accountability can help me get that task done and I don't need it long term, right? But if I constantly need someone to hold my hand long term, that's probably, that's more problematic. So. Yeah, I'm saying accurately rated. What do you think? Yeah, I, I agree with you. And that's why I was like, oh, this could be an interesting way. I don't know which way she'll actually take this. Um, but no, I, I definitely agree with you because I mean, we know, it kind of ties into the idea of social support, which we know is very, very important. And the research will say the same thing. Um, that said, like to your point of if you need someone in order to like, get you to the gym, or it's a. I won't go to the gym unless my friend is there and I'm only then going because I would feel guilty leaving them there. Will it get you to the gym more? Yeah. But like what happens when your friend goes on vacation? Or what happens if they move away? Or they decide they wanna start doing something else for exercise and now you're like, uh, yeah. So you're not really like developing any of the. Intrinsic motivation, really it's more self-determined, autonomous motivation. It's more extrinsic or dependent on someone else. Yeah. And you gotta remember, we're talking about behavior change. We wanna make these changes like last, like that's really the point. So we're looking at it through that lens versus just, you know, a more short term. So, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I feel like it could be like a good momentum builder. Mm-hmm. Like we're, we're talking right now at the very beginning of the year, and if you're like, I'm ready to start being more consistent at the gym, and you have another friend who's like, yeah, girl, me too. Let's try to do this together. And then maybe it could very much turn into like a, oh, we're going together for the first, like month or two or something, and then someone can't make it. And the other one's like, okay, well I guess I'll still go. And so it could, mm-hmm. It could work out in that way to just kind of like. Kick it up, you know, especially for thinking about a lot of people who maybe are like nervous to go to the gym or feel out of place. Um, actually I brought Kira to the gym when she was here for the Growth Collective retreat, and she literally was like a baby deer just like lost walking around. She's like, I'm gonna go find the treadmill in the back corner and you can go do your thing and I'll just be you here. So like, I could see where like, I mean, Kira was not gonna go to the gym unless I basically dragged her there. Um, so yeah, I feel that there's this like. Pieces in both directions, but then I think that that's what allows it to kind of fall in the middle. Absolutely. Okay. I love that one. All right. Ooh, what do I wanna pick now? Um, okay, this is going, oh, how about this one? Habit tracking. It's so interesting.'cause then I had like immediately in my be in my head, I'm like, are we talking about habits or are we just talking about like a behavior or No, why don't we talk? I mean because they're different. Right? And that's what came to mind was, and why I put it on the list because habits are not like regular behavior. So I'm thinking, I actually have a, I bought a habit tracker. Like what? You just think of like those columns and you're just check marking it every single day. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I guess we're talking about, we're talking about, people say habit tracker, but I don't think they know the difference and that's the point. Yeah, that's, and that is why it is on the list. Yeah. Yeah. For, for everyone listening, you're probably like, what is going on here? What do you mean that there's such a significant difference? What's wrong with my habit tracker? Um, habits really, truly by definition, are something that you are doing. Pretty automatically without really thinking about it. Like after you go to the bathroom and you go and you wash your hands, it's just, you're, you're just doing it. Like if the, the faucet on the sink was broken and has been broken for a while, chances are after you use the bathroom, you're still going over to the sink and trying to turn it on, even though you know that it is. Not going to work. So that's really like what a habit is. And a lot of us start to build habits over time. You know, in the morning if I'm immediately putting on gym clothes,'cause I know it's a gym day. I am just, I'm just thinking that way and just doing it habitually. Like I've definitely done it before where I've put gym clothes on to like get ready for the day and I'm like, oh, it's rest day. Like I actually don't need to do this. Um, so with that said. Hmm. Is it over or underrated? So I'm like, now am I overrated or underwriting the terminology or like the actual process. You could yes. Give nuance to it. You can like, just like we did with, uh, the other one, you could say, here's some pitfalls, here's some great things to keep you in mind. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think overrated in the way that. People are thinking like, if I am tracking this behavior over time, it, that's a habit. You know, like that doesn't, like, that just doesn't fit from a terminology perspective, which is also us honestly getting into the weeds a little bit here, truly. Um, but otherwise I think. Accurately rated that people like feel like, oh, I wanna like keep track of when I've done things and then be able to look back over the last month on my calendar, and I have crossed out X amount of days. Because that can really help you honestly start to cultivate more of a growth mindset. And it's like see like, oh, I'm capable of doing these things. Look, it's possible. And I have. Proof of that. So I think that that can be good. And I think people do a lot of that already. Like it is something that is seen as helpful to, at least that's my perspective. So that's why I say it's like accurately and not, um, like underrated or anything. Mm-hmm. Um, and also kind of like ties back into the self-monitoring conversation, like if you are keeping track of. When you have done things and being able to see that or like put a marble in the jar every time, and as it's getting filled up, it makes you feel like, oh yeah, I've actually made progress. And that's because you're monitoring it. It's like it is a form of self-monitoring, so. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Your thoughts. Okay. I think I'm like 75, 25 on this. 75 overrated. Okay. Mostly because I think about what's nice in theory versus what people actually do, and I can see habit trackers going for like seven to 14 days and then it drops off. So it's like maybe it was useful and that first 14 days, and that's okay. And that has enough benefit in and of itself. Um. But we also do like, we do monitoring though. So is that habit tracking? I guess then we get into the weeds. We do with some of our clients, do some of those daily check-ins where um, they are tracking. Um, but again, it's not a habit at that point. And there's where we get into the weeds, right? They're just tracking behaviors, uhhuh. So maybe it's, I dunno, maybe it's overrated monitoring behaviors accurately or maybe underrated, but habit tracking itself. Especially if you know what you need to make habits like truly form. Right. You need the cue, the appraisal, the reward. Now we're getting really into the weeds of it, but yeah. Okay. That's my thoughts. Yeah. The other thing that came up for me too is like. With something like that, I guess it could look different. I'm thinking a very traditional, like, here's the day, did you do it? Yes or no, mark the box type of thing. That to me, it's bringing up, and we've talked about this before, I think, um, in the health mindset coaching certification, like alumni group or somewhere, duo Ling. For those of you who know, it's like an app that you can use to learn a language and you create streaks over time. Actually, MyFitnessPal does this too with like streaks of how many days you've logged in, and that's kind of a similar idea for sure. And there's actually research on. Duolingo specifically, and people will go in and they're not even, no longer are they actually caring about learning the language that much. They're just going in to keep up the streak and like do something. And also for people who have very long streaks, if they do miss a day or two or whatever and lose that, the chances of them getting back in there are very, very low. So to some degree, again, this is kind of like, it's a parallel conversation, but. But I'm like, okay, if you're, you're tracking your quote unquote habits. You're tracking your actions, your behaviors, and then you fall off for a little while, are you even less motivated to get back into it after you have now seen yourself fall off? Okay, but here's where my brain goes with that is now you have the habit of checking the app, but not the language. Like that's the whole point. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So from a behavior change perspective, I mean, you're changing your behavior, checking the out, but are you becoming a Spanish speaker? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So food for thought when people are tracking habits and behaviors. Yeah. Is it, is it leading to the outcomes that you want? Right, because I could also see people maybe for, from my FitnessPal perspective, going in and just like logging a glass of water or something, just so they keep up their streak, even though like, that's not the point, you know? So, yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, all right. That was, I think that was fine. So your turn? My turn? Um hmm. I feel like I have so many good ones. Let's do. It'll, this'll be good 'cause it's kind of, can be like similarly tied into what we've been talking about, but rewards for completing a behavior. So like a dollar in a jar or something. Or being able to like, I'm gonna order in tonight if I can go to the gym, like X times per week or whatever. Or buy new gym clothes if I make it to the gym three times a week for the next month. Something like that. So kinda like a more tangible reward as mm-hmm. An outcome for the behavior? Yeah. Oh man, that one's tough. I, because I think it'll be a cop out if I say appropriately rated. Unless you think it is appropriately rated. I think I'm leaning. Towards overrated a little bit. Okay. Now let me make my, I've gotta make an argument for why I think it's a little overrated. Yeah, sure. Do. So, okay. How people will typically do this is they, they'll, you know, it's like almost I'll eat a, I'll eat X amount or make home cooked meals, and then I reward myself with dining out on Friday or. If I do a hundred workouts, I get new gym clothes or what have you. And what we know about behavior change is that when you rely on extrinsic rewards to help yourself do the behavior, it's less likely to stick long term 'cause you're just doing it as a means to an end. And so something that, you know, we teach our coaches, we teach our clients to do, is how do we help build. Connection, meaning and importance in the things that you're doing and help you value them. You don't have to love it. You don't have to find it rewarding per se. Sometimes, you know, for, um, exercise, for some of you cardio, running, whatever isn't gonna feel good while you do it. But can we find and link more personally meaningful? Rewards from that? Like, can we feel good about it? Can we like how we feel afterwards? We sleep better, we have more energy through the day. Um, it's our own, it's time to ourselves instead of, you know, being at the computer or with the kids or whatever. So. From a behavior change perspective, it's typically no bueno. We could maybe rely on it in the beginning for like behavior change initiation, but it's, it's not gonna be something I'm gonna want to have a client rely on long term. Um, even for myself, if there's a behavior that I wanna change. I don't wanna give myself rewards forever to do it, so. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Overrated. I think that's my perspective too. I think overrated. The whole idea of I need to have something else tangible in order to make me feel good about doing this thing that I'm. Wanting to do for other reasons, like you're not going to the gym simply so you can go buy a new set at Lululemon. You know, like there, there's other reasons behind it. So if we get so stuck on, no, this is the most important thing, like getting my new gym clothes is the most important thing. Then you're kind of. Losing sight of the reason why you're really wanting to do this in the first place, which to your point, attaching to values and things that make you feel good and all of that is what's actually going to keep things going long term. Um, but I don't, I also don't like fully say like, don't recommend, like, never do that for yourself. Like if you. Get to the end of six months and you've been super consistent with a bunch of health behaviors that you weren't before, and you're like, you know what? Treat yourself like, let's go to Lululemon. We're gonna eat, I'm gonna have a meal that I haven't really quote unquote, like allowed myself to have. Like, fine, do that. Great. But also at the same time, keep top of mind the real reasons why you're wanting to do it and why it's made you feel good and the accomplishment that you have from that. Et cetera. Mm-hmm. Okay. Love that one. Do we wanna do one more? Two more. Who started first? Was it me? You, you, you started first. All right. You wanna do two more? I'll do one and you I have like, I have. Yeah.'cause I have good ones. We can keep going. I'll, I'll talk to where we do part two, we can do a part two. Where are we at right now? We're like 24 minutes in. Yeah, we could do, we could do a two part. That's true. This is fun. It is super fun. Um, okay, this one is gonna be more of a frame of mind, underrated, overrated, locking in. Hmm. Just got out. What is it? Like, get locked in lock. Yeah. Locked in in my, in my brain. I'm like, I can't, it's like, you can't really say this, but when I, you're typing it like locked TF in, that's like what I, that's what goes in my brain. Like it's locking in. Lock the fuck in. Yeah. Locking in in 2026. Somewhere, uh, overrated or underrated. So seeing this as like a, like your, a perspective that you're holding, like I just gotta lock in. I just, you know, a client says it to the coach, I just gotta lock in. Like, that's the problem is me. I need a lock in. Ah, okay. So I'm like, I definitely say this to myself, but it's like when I have days where I'm like, oh, I need to, I need to set a timer for the next hour and lock in on mm-hmm. Get this piece of work done type of thing. Like, I. Definitely do that with myself. And I feel like that works. Um, is that a behavior change problem? Not really, no. So it's like an initiation sounds like an A task Initiate initiation. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I gotta lock in for the next hour and then like, I'll call you back type of thing. Like that's, I feel like that's different than like what we're talking about here. So I would say generally, if clients are saying this or you're saying this about. Like, yeah, you have to lock in for 2026 or just really need to lock in for the next six months before my wedding or whatever. Um, I feel like that is overrated. You're like, yes, it is. Correct. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like overrated because. First and foremost, I'm like, what does that even mean? Like, what does it mean to lock in? You know, like, okay, are we saying you're currently going to the gym two, two times per week and you wanna make it. Five? Or are we talking like, I just need to keep up with my two times per week? Like there's, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of questions surrounding that, but also just don't really love the, it kind of feels like a, a discipline conversation too, like a, no matter what, I just gotta like, I just gotta stay disciplined and like white knuckling through things, which mm-hmm. We. For sure. Not really supportive for long-term behavior change. And if you're feeling like you have to lock in in order to make these behavior changes, does that mean you're just like locked in for the rest of your life or were, or is this just gonna turn into every few months? I lock in, but yet I wish I was doing these things all of the time, consistently. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Now, now that I've said all that, it's definitely overrated. I, yeah, no, I agree. I think, um, there's some all or nothing like coded language in that some, and it, it's, it actually brought up smart, smarter goals. Like the specific, 'cause you're, you're like, that's what does this even mean? It's not clear, it's kind of directionless. Uh, I actually think there's probably a bias, I don't know. It leans into like optimism bias or something where we kind of, um. Are so optimistic in the beginning and maybe overestimate our own like skillset or motivation or interest, but, and we don't take into account how we're gonna feel four weeks from now, eight weeks from now. What are we asking ourselves to do? Is that like. Really appropriate. Um, if there's extrinsic reasons, driving behind the locking in, that's especially problematic. And I would hate to have someone just falter 'cause they're like ebbing and flowing through the locking in and then they fall off and they're like, I'm not locked in. Why can't I get locked in? Then they make it a thing about themselves and it's a shame conversation. It's overrated. We use it. You and me will use it to lock in for work, but there's like the nuances that we're not trying to, we're not in a behavior change journey there, so mm-hmm. Use it for Sean, but if it's, it's not a behavior change, POV, we commend. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Love it. Nailed it. Should I do one? Should I do one more or should we be done? Yeah, no, I think you, yeah. One more to make it even. Okay. One more. Which one? The finale. Um. I think. Okay. Over underrated ideal version of yourself thinking or journaling about this, like projecting like into the future, like this is the best version, this is who I want to be. Having that idea, like an idealized version of you, what are your thoughts on that? For behavior change? Oh, that one's so hard, Casey. Gotcha. Oh God. Is it a cop out to say accurately rated? I almost think it's a little, I'm trying to think how people actually use it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know what I'm thinking of is that that future, is it future self continuity? Yeah, the circles. I always remember the circles, the, I think of Google, because I saw it on a Google, what was it? Kelly McConnell Gold. Oh yes, yes. Google about it. Yes. I always think like the Google circles, we'll have to include that image so people understand what we're talking about. I also like, this is interesting you bring that up because Yeah, I'll, I'll try to figure out how we can put this on here. Maybe I'll just like grab, it's a, it's from a research study. Mm-hmm. And they essentially had people. There's like two separate circles and one was like a green and one was a blue. Maybe it wasn't for all this context. We'll say it. And they had like, okay, this is your future self is the green circle. The blue circle is your current self. And then they had a bunch of variations of these circles. For those of you who are watching on YouTube, you actually get to see my lovely hand motions and they have a bunch of variations of these two circles next to each other. And basically they start. Pretty far apart. And then with these variations as it goes on the, the circles come closer and closer together until they're fully overlapped. So where do you fall on this that you like relate your current self with your future self? And, uh, I don't want to say this incorrectly, but I think they were looking at like people, maybe it was some health stuff, maybe financial stuff that those who see. What was it? I think it was retirement planning. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And the people who see themselves closer to their future selves, like they don't see that person as that's a stranger. You know, Casey at 80 years old is not even someone I can relate to right now. But if I could, then it's, I'm more likely to say for retirement and like do things now for my future. Um, so that's kind of where this is coming from. And that's definitely wanted to explain all of that because that is. Really talking like future self versus ideal self. And now I'm realizing I kind of said both of those, but I think really my over or under question for you is how important it is to picture like your, the ideal version of you, like the best version of you, and then using that too. Hopefully motivate you to change behaviors to be more like that ideal version. I don't, gosh, I don't know. I, 'cause I can see it, it's useful. You kind of need to know, um, what your guiding star is. Like who, who, what kind of person do you wanna be? How do you anchor the, the behaviors. Like what values do you anchor the behavior changes you're working on too? The problem I'm falling under is the values that people choose can undermine behavior change. So that's why I am like in this like tricky territory that it's underrated for people to use it well and right. And we can even use idealize like, who is this ideal version of me? Is she aspirational? I don't even know if there's a difference between aspirational or inspirational. Is there like a. Is one better than the other or is it just semantic? Honestly, that's a great question. And now I'm like, why do I not know the, the answer to those words? I'm, I'm wondering because I'm almost, I think it's, we'll look it up. Well look it up and see if you come up with anything because I'm, because I'm like, is aspirational, can that have an undermining component? And inspirational doesn't. Inspiration is the external spark or mental stimulation that makes you want to do something. The feeling where aspiration is the internal long-term hope, ambition, or goal you set for yourself. The action inspiration is the trigger, often from outside that fuels the desire to achieve a future goal, which is the aspiration itself, making inspiration, the catalyst for aspiration. Okay. That cleared it up, but also gave me a lot more questions. That's kind of how I feel too. Like Yeah, makes sense. Does it, does it though? Um, alright. I'm gonna need to play around with that one on my own. But yeah, it is, it is, it just, it's the, the, that it's the ideal. Like what is the, the meat of the idealized version is the thing that could be problematic. I like the practice of thinking about. The idealized version of me, but also. Hmm. Uh, gosh, I'm not answering this very well. You stumped me. This is good though. I'd be curious. Like, I wonder if, if we could get people to tell us what they think. Yeah. Like, do you think that this is actually supportive for changing your behavior to spend time thinking about the ideal version of you, which I, I honestly think most people would say. Yeah. Like, why would it not be? Um, I will say. I have a little bit of an argument as to why I feel it could be overrated, and partially because of what you said. Because it's like, well, what are those things that you're, who you're striving to be?'cause if that person is like a perfectionist in a hundred percent, gets everything done perfectly all the time, then. That's probably not something you're wanting to shoot for, right? Because you're going to obviously have times where that's not the case and now it's like, I can never be the person I want to be and like not. That's very unmotivating. Right. Um, also I feel like. And you can correct me if I'm wrong or tell me if you have a different perspective on this. Like I think there's a lot of, there's a big narrative out there that who you are now, you cannot achieve things by being that person, so you actually have to be this entire other person. That is typically people's like ideal versions of themselves. When I think that that can be kind of problematic to feel like I can't be me and be successful to me, I'm like, again, we're probably just getting into the weeds here, but that's what we do best. Um, I think. It could be more like, no, who you are is absolutely currently right now capable of achieving the things that you want to achieve and changing your behaviors. However, you just might need some more bells and whistles, some more skills, some more resources, some more practice, some people in your corner, a coach, you know, things like that. But it doesn't mean that like who you are fundamentally.'cause I think this kind of turns into like a growth versus fixed mindset conversation, which hang around me long enough and everything will. Um, but I do. Think it could be like a, a fixed mindset of who I am is not the person who can change these behaviors and see these goals come to fruition and, and all of that. And that can be an issue because then if it feels like, well, who I am is not something I can really fundamentally change that much, then you're honestly gonna be stuck there. So I would rather people think of it as like, I am so good enough right now, I just don't have. All of the skills and necessary things in order to be successful, to change these behaviors, to be consistent with these behaviors long term. So then like what do I need to add on again, bells and whistles versus how do I change the person that I am? Yes. Oh, you said, you were saying exactly what came to mind. I didn't know how to say it. Like you touched on why is who I am today so insufficient. Like, you know, and, and we don't want people walking away with that, that feeling like it is, right. There's this quote that's like, the bad news is it's up to you, but the good news is it's up to you. Yeah. It's like one of my favorites. So. Yeah. Like it's, it's you and so ideal. Yeah. You, you nailed it. That was a, oh, that was a toughie. You said the tough for last. I really kinda did, but I did think, I was like, okay, if there's one where maybe we would really have unique perspectives on, it's probably this one. Like I was saying at the beginning, like things that. Maybe we've just never had a conversation, never about before. Whereas there's definitely some things, guys, where if I were to say discipline overrated or underrated, like again, like I'm gonna, I know how Sarah, maybe we'll save that one for next time. A little bit of a teaser. Um, I know how Sarah's gonna respond, but we can also have a very productive conversation that would be helpful for all of you listening. But this one, I was like, Hmm, I really don't know what she's gonna do with this one. So. Yeah, you were surprised. I was surprised. That was good. Yeah, that was, that was so good, guys. We were actually worried like, we're gonna have the same list. This is gonna be late. We didn't have, but no, we did it, but I think because we were worried we would have the same things, we really tried to pick things that we wouldn't maybe necessarily say normally. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. When you part two. Okay. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah, definitely gonna do a part two. Hopefully you guys liked it as much as we did. We're just like, he, he, this is so fun. They're all like, no, this is lame. Do this. It's just, it's basically just Sarah and Casey hanging out and you're just here. You're just here. Which is kind of what we wanted this to be all along. So, um, no, and this is good 'cause then I still have a few good ones that we can save for next time, but, okay. Anything. Anything else for the crowd? Alright, beautiful. We failed our time goal, but it doesn't matter. We'll try again. Absolutely failed that, but that's okay. I feel like it. I feel like it was worth it. It was worth it. They needed us to be on here longer. Mm-hmm. Okay. We appreciate you guys so much. Thank you for tuning in and we'll see you next week. And that's a wrap for today's episode of Not Another Mindset show. If you enjoyed today's. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you get notified of the next one, because if you're anything like me, if the episodes aren't popping up for you automatically, you'll keep forgetting to come back to the show even if you really, really enjoyed it. So go ahead and hit that subscribe button and make it super easy for you and of course. If you wanna see more episodes just like this one, I'd love for you to let me know by leaving a review. I know, I know it's super annoying to do, but the few seconds that it takes means the world to me and also ensures that I can keep providing free education and value to you. And just to sweeten the deal, I am going to be picking a random reviewer every single month to receive a free workshop or product from me if you're looking for more free resources. Or just wanna connect, hang out, chat a little bit. Come find me on Instagram. I'm Coach Casey, Joe over there. That is where I hang out the most in the land of social media. Alright, my friends, that is all I have for you this time. I so appreciate you being here and love to see you prioritizing your growth. I'll see you next time.