The Esthetician Podcast

The Biggest Hiring Mistakes Salon Owners Make (and How to Fix Them) With HR Expert Sandra

• Kari Jo

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Announcer:

Welcome to the Esthetician Podcast, where passion meets prosperity. Your host, Kari Jo Patterson, transformed from a solo esthetician into a successful business owner, achieving ultimate time and financial freedom by the age of 38. Kari is the author of Fearless Prosperity, empowering estheticians to build their empire and achieve financial freedom, and the creator of the empire growth system for estheticians. Get ready for some empire building wisdom Now. Welcome your host, Kari Jo Patterson.

Kari Jo:

Welcome back to the Esthetician Podcast. I'm so excited. Today is Wednesday, so we have a guest on. We have an HR expert and she is going to go over just general hiring questions that people have. We're also going to talk about maybe letting people go all sorts of things that come up when you are hiring and you have employees. We are going to debunk some myths. We are going to help you avoid some common mistakes about hiring and leadership. So let's jump into it. Hi Sandy, how are you doing? Hi Kari, how are you Super good? Now, just a little behind the scenes. Sandy is actually my mother. She is in HR, and so it was super helpful for me when I was growing my company because I hired her on to help me with all the things I needed to know behind the scenes. So I want to jump in and I want to talk about what is the number one hiring mistakes that you see business owners making all the time mistakes that you see business owners making all the time.

Sandra:

The number one mistake is hiring a body. Most time, managers either have fired somebody or they're growing so quickly that they need a body and they're struggling to find somebody that they really need. So they just say they're struggling to find somebody that they really need. So they just say just hire them, we'll figure it out, we'll work it out. And that is your biggest mistake.

Kari Jo:

Yeah, I agree with you. I once heard about hiring as much like Tetris, and you're trying to fill all of these tiny little holes, and so you want to think what skill am I missing that I could hire someone else for? So you're not just hiring for the position, you're also hiring for a skill set. So like, for example, if you hate waxing, then hire an esthetician that loves waxing. If you don't want to be on social media, then hire an assistant that loves social media. Don't you think? Yes?

Sandra:

Yes, I've always told my managers figure out where your hole is and fill the hole. The hard part is sometimes is the managers admitting that they have a hole or that they need to fill it, or that they don't have the knowledge and they need somebody to do something that they cannot. It's not bad to say I cannot do it, because not everybody can do everything at 100%. It's just the matter of fact. This is my weak spot and this is where I need someone to come in and help.

Kari Jo:

Yeah, because it's kind of like creating the whole will. I mean, you're filling the whole will. So let's go into hiring. And if I, if there was one thing that you wished every single employer, every single boss knew before they hired their first employee, what would it be?

Sandra:

Hiring isn't magical. You can't expect to hire an individual and, on day one, for them to walk through the doors and hit the ground running. It's unrealistic. Even if the individual has been in the business for five, 10, 15 years, they are still not gonna be able to hit the floor running because, number one, they don't know your business and they don't know your expectations and they don't know how you do it. And so, really, managers need to understand that it takes at least 30 days for a new employee to say, huh, okay, I think I'll stay, I think this is, I think this is a an okay match. 30 days into it, you know they're, they're getting into the groove and you're starting to see some development. But you really will not get ROI on your employee until a year after the hire, and the reason for that is training and teaching that individual your business. The reason why individuals leave and a lot of new hires leave at three months and the reason why is because they did not get the proper training.

Kari Jo:

I noticed that within my own company is that you know, when I hire an employee, they come on and they're so great. And the first month I just like love them. You know what I mean Like oh yeah, we're excited. And then the second month it just like love them. You know what I mean. Like oh yay, we're excited. And then the second month it's like training them. And then that third month really comes along. And when I hit that third month so many times, I start noticing that a lot of little things start popping up with the employee, like they they get, they're getting in trouble more than they normally did. Why is it that employees are starting to get in trouble more around that third month, when they weren't getting in trouble before that?

Sandra:

Employees can hold the rope, usually for three months. At three months is when that rope starts to wear down and that's when they start showing that they don't have the detailed understanding of the skill or the experience that they told you. Their motivation starts to go through, starts to go through. You see their learning curve, whether it's dropping off or it's not. Three months is like a major, a major turning point for most companies on whether or not that employee is going to stay with you or if they are going to leave Personally. In the companies that I worked for, our probationary period was nine months. That gave me nine months to see the employee through and to get them trained, and training truly is on the manager.

Kari Jo:

I feel like why they drop off at the three month point usually, and why you start noticing things, is because the employee just starts getting comfortable and so at three months, that's when, like, they start letting their bad habits out and so you're actually getting to know the employee. Not necessarily and I do think there is some truth to like they didn't get trained or something like that. I definitely see that there's truth to that, but I also just think that usually at about three months, they're pretty comfortable and so they're like okay, and they just kind of start getting lax. Do you? What do you think about that?

Sandra:

That is true, and it's probably more true in hiring a hot body, because you hired to fill the position and you didn't take the time to look at it for a culture fit, an ethic, fit, a fit with the team, your gap, all of that plays into it.

Kari Jo:

So one of the things that I want to know is you've done a lot of hiring. What are some red flags that these owners can look for when they're trying to hire on a new esthetician?

Sandra:

Okay, if an employee is coming to you for an interview and they're really interested in the job, they are going to do background on your company before they actually come to the interview. So one red flag is their dress. They will know what your dress standard is and even if you wore scrubs, they will at least wear your colors, but they will be dressed professionally, not asking questions. Asking questions is very important because it shows that they are interested in your company and that they want to know more Communication skills. Employees need to be able to answer the question and not ramble. They need to be able to make eye contact. If that employee can't make eye contact, they're not going to be able to make eye contact with your customers, and your customer wants that eye contact because eye contact tells them that they have the knowledge and just basically being overconfident or arrogant and bragging on everything that they have done.

Sandra:

The one question I always ask my potential employees is what is your best attribute? What is your worst attribute attribute? If an employee can't tell you what their worst attribute is, it's going to be very hard to have them teachable. It's going to be very hard for them to take accountability when they have done something wrong. It's not necessarily that they have to have a bad ad. Their worst attribute is something in that position they can always go. I really don't know. I haven't been in the field long enough to know, um, what I really don't like or what my bad attitude is. But at home, this is you know where I can really use improvement and it tells you that they're willing to take accountability. That is a huge, huge deal in hiring a new employee.

Kari Jo:

I learned early on that your best quality is also your greatest weakness, right? So, like for me, for example, my best quality is like I am an idea or I have so many ideas, right. Like I can think of a new idea on the drop of a hat. If there's a problem, I've got an idea to try to solve that problem and I have idea, idea, idea. I'm creative right Now. The flip side to that that is like one of my greatest strengths. The weakness to that is like I'm an idea or I'm not an executioner, you know. And so I think it is interesting if you're interviewing an employee and you're asking them what is your greatest strength, what's the flip side of that? Because that's also their greatest weakness, you know.

Sandra:

Yes.

Kari Jo:

I want to know what are some of the signs that you see that shows that an employee is actually going to be a great long term hire.

Sandra:

Okay, well, a lot of it is kind of like in your red flags when you're interviewing someone, someone that is willing to show up early, that ask questions, that know something about your business, that is huge. And then you get into their skills and their experience and you start looking at them. Are they a good culture fit? Will they fit with the team? You know what are your potential challenges with them and, if you have concerns, ask the potential employee. I have a concern that this is our issue and I'm not sure how I would actually go around fixing it. Can you give me ideas and ask them actually questions that you would an employee? Because if they can think and come up with something, it tells you that they can think on the spot, that they're motivated to help you, and being motivated to help you will tell you that they're willing to stay. But it also a key factor in knowing if that employee is going to stay is training.

Sandra:

Training is huge. The employee doesn't fail the job because he was trained. More than more than 50% of the time is because it was lack of training.

Kari Jo:

Yeah. So one of the questions that I always asked my when I was interviewing is I always asked because, as an esthetician, you're going to even though I'm hiring you on you're going to have to also market yourself, you're going to have to help grow your own schedule. And so one of the big questions I always asked and I asked it on the spot and I wanted to know how they could solve this problem on the spot which is, let's say, it's a really rainy day outside and you're selling ice cream, how are you going to sell it? Right, and I love asking that question because it puts them on the spot. So they got to think right, If they can start, like, coming up with creative ideas and stuff like that, they're more than likely going to be able to come up with creative ideas to try to help build their schedule and put the effort.

Kari Jo:

But if you're asking them that question and they're like, uh, uh, uh, right, you, I feel like you automatically know that you're going to have to pull this employee along to help him build their clientele. And if you need them to build a clientele, then you don't necessarily want someone you're pulling, you want someone that's going to help carry that load with you. So I like the on the spot. But going back to your first question that you had, or not your first question, but your first statement that you said about being on time, what do you like? So if somebody shows up late or they had something pop up and they did call, is it like a no, you're done, like you can't work here anymore, or like red flag, like how, and they have a good reason on the phone? I mean like like what do you think about that?

Sandra:

Okay, I have had employees where they couldn't get to the interview and they actually called and said I was having car problems or there was a wreck on the freeway. It's going to take me a few minutes, can I? Would you like me to continue to come in, or can I reschedule? And they asked to continue with that interview, not me asking them to come in. They are offering do you want me to come in now or would you like me to come back at another time? That is very important. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Kari Jo:

Yeah, that is so good yeah, I had.

Sandra:

I had one individual once I was working at a production facility and I had this person come in and they were like five, ten minutes late. And they walked in and they sat down and I was there with a supervisor to manage them and I said, you realize you're 10 minutes late. And and the individual said, yeah, but my car broke and I ran like a dog to get here and I was like, okay, I understand that you ran like a dog to get here, you know, and he, he did put forth the effort. So I kept that in the back of my mind as we did the interview. But as we did the interview and we asked him questions, he didn't have the skill and he wasn't a good fit for for the position that we were looking at. So you got to be able to see through what they are actually saying. Are they actually really telling you the truth or do they realize that they are being late and they're coming up with a story and they want to say, okay, well, all right, hurry, come on in and we'll meet you, and be like, no, you're late.

Sandra:

And I also had employees that have come in where they didn't have any excuse, they just came in and they were five minutes late and they sat down and I'd say what time was your interview? And they'd say one o'clock. And I said, and the time now is? And they'd look at the clock and they'd go it's one. Oh'd say, are you late? Well, yeah, just a little bit, but that's okay. It's like no, it's not okay attendance. You call them out? Yeah, I do. Performance and attendance is huge. It's huge on the company because if someone is late it puts the burden on your other employees and it's not fair to your other employees. And I actually told that individual. I said you know it's your choice. You can go through the interview, but I can tell you right now, but the you're probably not going to be hired oh and and they and at that point, because that told a lot about the employee.

Sandra:

at that point the individual got up and he said OK, thanks, and walked out. And the supervisor at the time looked at me and he goes now we really needed somebody. And I said yeah, but did you want to work with that? Did you want to have that person be late all the time? And they said no. He said I like how it turned out. He says but I don't think I would have dared done it.

Kari Jo:

Yeah, I gosh, you're a boss man, call him on the shot. I agree and I think it also like it's it's having boundaries and respect and that that even comes into like clients and stuff like that. Like if you don't respect your time, like how can you expect anyone else? If you don't respect your employees time, how can you expect your employee or your clients to respect your employees time? Like it's all just about having boundaries. So we've talked a lot about like hiring and some red flags. I want to know, on the flip side, on employee retention and how do you avoid like this high turnover? So what actually makes a good employee stay at a job long term and I know it's not just money and money is money, is not that.

Sandra:

Um, there's been a lot of surveys done and money is not the number one reason employees stay. They stay currently, right now. It's life work fit, it's a life work balance. That is what is number one on the job to retaining employees. But besides being work-life balance, I would say it's the manager and training if an employee leaves a company, most of the time they leave it because of the manager.

Sandra:

They don't leave it because they hated the job. There have been very many exit interviews that I would leave and they would say you know what? I really like the job. And I would say well then why are you leaving? I don't like my manager and this is why.

Kari Jo:

Yeah, I remember that is a hard truth for anybody to fill. I remember when I my very first employee that I lost, it was so gut wrenching Cause like I just I really, really loved her and she left and I probably let the boundaries of friendship and boss employment kind of get a little bit muddied. But when she left I was watching Instagram or something like that and this post came up and on the post it said employees don't leave companies, they leave management. And it was like, oh, you know, and I think it was like the best thing that I ever had.

Kari Jo:

But then when I looked at that I was like, yeah, and at the time you know, that employee that left, she actually she was having a big issue with one of my supervisors, like a really big issue, and I wouldn't even say it was necessarily you know, just my supervisor, why she left. But you know there was a, there was a responsibility on me for did she trust me to necessarily handle the situation? I don't know, but it was like a really good learning experience for me to be like, ok, anytime someone leaves, it's my fault, it's totally my fault.

Sandra:

If you look at it more in the individual left, because it's my fault, yes, but instead of doing it's my fault, it's you should be asking yourself what was I lacking for that employee? What did I not give that employee that that employee needed?

Kari Jo:

Yes, yes, totally. And that's the thing is. Whenever I say like it's my fault, I will back that up. I say it's my fault and then I'm like what is it that I need to change so that never happens again? And so like, what systems do I need to put into place to completely fix that? I one of um going into like actually now, let's say we have to let somebody go, how does that look? How do you let someone go?

Sandra:

Okay, letting an employee go is never easy Never easy. I'll tell you some steps that you need to do and then I'll tell you how my first termination went. Document, document, document. You can never have enough documentations. My managers would come back and say are you kidding? You want me to document that? And it's yes, document it, even if it's two lines. It's like we had this issue. This was the resolution. This is the employee's response to it, because you want to be able to have enough documentation that if the employee is fired, you don't have to pay unemployment and if they want to sue you for wrongful termination, you want to have enough documentation.

Sandra:

That said, as manager of my company, I did my best. I gave them the training, I gave them ample opportunity to change, and they still did not change. My first termination was extremely hard. It was a production manager. I had to terminate my production manager Termination went well. I mean, it was good for my first one. It was hard, but it was good. I got done and I called my manager and I told him. I said that is the worst thing I've ever done. I don't know if I can do this. And his response was that's the response I need from you.

Kari Jo:

The day that it doesn't matter and it doesn't affect you is the day that you quit caring for the employee yeah, oh, I feel that I think I think letting people go is the worst job on the planet because I do.

Kari Jo:

I feel so bad, so I love that he that, and I and I want to talk about something leading up to, like, the termination too, because it is so important that you are not blindsiding whoever it is that you are letting go. Like they should basically already know that it's coming along, because if you just blindside them, that employee is a one going to hate you for the rest of their life. Like they might not hate you the other way, but they definitely are going to hate you if you blindside them. And the second reason why you never want to just blindside someone is because, if you have any employees, you are going to scare the crap out of all of your employees, and now they're all going to be wondering am I next? And they aren't going to trust you. But they your employees have to trust you in order for you to lead them. So it can create a big havoc if you're just randomly letting people go and they're unexpecting it. What do you think about that?

Sandra:

yeah, I totally agree. Um, number one if you're having problems with an employee, you want to go through a process. If they did something wrong, you bring them in. You talk to them. You're you. You tell them this is going to be an oral warning. I am giving you an oral warning that it needs to change. He goes out. You bring him back in. Three months later You're going. Nope, you're still struggling. You are now receiving a written warning. This is going in your file. If he still does not change, then can move to uh, last chance agreement. You can't let him go after a written warning, because you do show that you had an oral communication with him and a written warning. But you're far better off doing an oral or written and then, um, a performance plan, because it's showing that you are trying to work with the employee.

Sandra:

The one thing that most managers don't understand is this employee is being bad, go talk to HR and we're going to write you up.

Sandra:

It's okay to be written up, but it's what they do with the write-up. So when I have employees come in and we give them their performance plan or their write-up, the first things out of my mouth is you may not agree with everything that I say, not agree with everything that I say, but what you need to decide is find something that you agree with that is wrong and change it, and that will make all the difference. And that is helping the employee move forward. And the employee isn't as angry with you, because employees are going to be angry if you bring them in and you write them up and you discipline them. They just are. It's the way of life. But if you try to show them, you know it's up to you what you do with it. You know you can either take it and fix it and fly with it or you can sit on it and be angry and next month we're terminating you yeah, and I think documenting everything is is so important, and nowadays it makes it so easy to document.

Kari Jo:

I mean, when I first started I could, like I had to go a hand in and write after everything happened, what I thought happened and whatever right then, right, right. That's not very fun, but nowadays, like I have an iMac computer, I can just push that voice button and it can record the whole entire conversation. I'm sure there's even softwares out there that can record your meeting and summarize it, and so I think it's so helpful to have that documentation. There's now systems that make it so much easier to document as you're going along to having to let someone go.

Sandra:

Yes, if you don't have the updated documentation, do a spreadsheet, as long as you have something that will date it and you can sign it. Because if you have to, excuse me take it to court or take it to unemployment, you need to be able to prove that you didn't all of a sudden write it down. You've got dates and stuff dates in your name so that they can follow a timeline.

Kari Jo:

So going to being compliant with labor laws? What is the best way to stay compliant with labor laws, would you say?

Sandra:

I would get on your government site, whether it's Utah, every state has their own labor laws, labor laws. I can tell you that, like for the state of Utah, their labor laws fall right in line with the federal laws and so as long as you're following the federal laws, you are covered. But there are states out there like California, oregon, washington, new York, washington, new York, that they go above beyond the federal laws and they add more onto it. So states can either follow the federal law, but they can't go below the federal law. They can add onto it, so they can add on more things that you have to do.

Kari Jo:

And so Google, you know your government, your government site and your state and it will give you all your federal laws, okay, well, so if someone is listening and they're about to make their first hire and hire their first employee, what is the very first step that they should take today to get started?

Sandra:

Okay, I would tell them analyze where your holds are, find out where your weaknesses are and where your strengths are. Once you find out where your weaknesses and your strengths are, then you're ready to post for the position. Because you're going to emphasize your weaknesses, you're going to post. You don't have to. Once you post and you start getting in resumes doesn't mean you have to bring all those individuals in. You sift through those resumes, you look at the ones that you like and you do a telephone interview. Telephone interview will help you weed out a lot. Where you're going, yeah, they really don't know it. And while you're doing the telephone interview and you're not sure, it's like walk me through a procedure. It's okay to ask them to walk you through a procedure so that you under, so that they you understand that they know what they're doing. Once you've done the phone interview, then bring them in. But when you bring them in, be very aware Are they asking questions?

Sandra:

Do they know anything about the company? Because if they haven't looked up the company, chances are they're just looking for a job that will get them to the next job. And you know that's okay. It might take them two years to get to the next job, but you just put in a year worth of your life helping that individual to work for a year and then they're off again. And employees do jump nowadays. It used to be that employees would stay five, 10 years before they would jump. Nowadays they're jumping like every two years, even sometimes you'll see them jumping every one year. I would be. I would highly discourage anybody when you're looking at a resume for somebody that's jumping every year, because all they're doing is they're looking for a price increase, price increase, pay increase, pay increase, pay increase. You want someone that's at least with the company for two years and then find out why they left that company and ask them what would have made you stay, because that will tell you what you need to do to get that employee to stay at your company.

Kari Jo:

That is really good. Well, I want to thank you, sandy, for joining on my podcast today and giving your little wisdom of gold for anyone in HR. I know. It was so super useful for me. You saved me a lot. You helped me a lot in my company and for anyone who is out there and they are considering hiring, I do have a course.

Kari Jo:

It's called hire like a boss, and you can go and download it today. It's going to walk you through step-by-step. It has all the different templates that you need, so when you're doing an offer letter, it's going to show an example of an offer letter. I also include the secret question that I ask every one of my interview, my interviewees. I ask them a secret question and that's how I know I'm making a good hire, and so it has that secret question in there. It's going to give everything that you need, step by step. I highly recommend you taking it. I've learned the hard way and this way you don't have to learn the hard, hard way. You can get it right, hopefully the first time, because hiring wrong is going to cost you. It's going to cost you a lot more than you think it will. So jump on, grab that course today and I will see you Friday with another business tip. Thanks for coming on, sandy. Thank you, Kari. Bye-bye.

Announcer:

Thank you for listening to the Esthetician Podcast with Kari Jo Patterson. Each week, Kari brings you real-world lessons on how to grow your empire. To learn more about Kari fearless prosperity mastermind group, one-on-one VIP coaching opportunities and more visit Kari. That's Kari. That's wwwk-a-r-i-j-o-pattersoncom. See you next week for more insights and strategies on the Esthetician Podcast.

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