59: The Power of Knowing: Breaking Free from the Model and Redefining Connection with Amy Vasterling

What if the root of our anxiety, people-pleasing, and unhealthy relationship patterns isn’t personal weakness—but a deeper cultural conditioning that keeps us trapped in hierarchy and control?

In Part 3 of the Radical Truth in Relationships series, Darla Ridilla sits down with Amy Vasterling—future-focused author of Know: Where the Status Quo Ends and You Come to Life—to explore how reclaiming your inner knowing can dismantle old patterns and open the door to authentic connection.

Together they unpack:

• What Amy calls The Model—the invisible system of control and comparison we’ve all been conditioned to live by.
• Why ignoring our knowing leads to chronic anxiety, disconnection, and even illness.
• A radical new lens on narcissism as “social disordering,” rooted in unmet needs.
• How natural consequences fuel maturity and true self-expression.
• Why highly sensitive women are the change-makers society needs right now.

If you’ve ever felt silenced, dismissed, or pressured to shrink in order to belong, this conversation will remind you that you already carry the wisdom you’ve been searching for—and that living from your knowing changes everything.

Connect with Amy Vasterling:

Website: ttps://amyvasterling.com

Connect with Darla Ridilla: 

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Transcript

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Amy Vasterling (00:00)
And we can particularly think of maybe a grandmother or a grandmother figure in our life who all chaos is breaking loose in the environment and they just stand there and they know.

And so they don't have to get into the drama or the activity and they're not being obstinate. They're simply observing because they know, right? And that knowing with the others in the room, if they take that in and recognize that in that person, they too will become that. And that's the power of it is it changes everything quite simply. And that's why as a child, when we have these pieces paved over,

we become convoluted and confused about who to be. And it's no accident that our societies across the world are super anxious, particularly in the United States, because that is the attachment to outcome. And if we never know who to be for our boss and for our spouse and for our children, am I a good enough parent? Sound familiar? That we are going to be stressed. We're going to be anxious, chronically anxious.

Darla Ridilla (00:52)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Darla Ridilla (00:59)
Welcome to You Have the Power, the road to truth, freedom and real connection. I'm Darla Ridilla a certified somatic trauma informed relationship coach for high achieving women who've been told they're too much. If you've built success on the outside, if you're unseen, resentful, or like you're constantly editing yourself just to keep the peace, you are in the right place. I help powerful women stop shrinking in relationships that demand self abandonment, whether that's a partner, a parent, a boss or a best friend.

Because here's the truth, you are not too much, you're just accepting too little. Each week, you'll hear radical insights, nervous system-based tools, and unfiltered conversations that break the patterns keeping brilliant women stuck, and show you how to reclaim your power, your voice, and your relationships on your terms. Let's get started with today's topic.

Darla Ridilla (01:55)
Hello, everyone. I am so super excited to have a guest today. It's amazing how the universe brings people into your life when you change. I, as you know, recently changed the focus of my podcast to high achieving women and really being whole within yourself and authenticating who you are. And I met this amazing lady who we're going to have a conversation here in just a moment. Her name is Amy.

I related to so much of what she said. So I'm super excited about where this conversation is going to go today. I invite all of you to remove all distractions. If you're driving, that's OK. Keep listening. But this is, I think, going to be a game changer for a lot of people who are listening today. And let's just dive right in. So Amy Vasterline is a future-focused public speaker, author, teacher, and intuitive.

sharing the importance of returning to your personal knowing. Her unique perspective honed over several decades shows what people refer to as narcissism as a high level social disorder. Like with any desire for change, something needs to replace the old. In this case, she has found it is our expression, which is often hampered by judgment that leads to control. Amy observed the recurrence of people's aim to tell others

I know better for you and then you know for yourself." And realized this was a key to the full story of the insecurity behind it all. Amy believes humanity has a great future as we mature emotionally and leave something she calls the model behind. Now she empowers individuals and communities to dynamically return to the truth of who they are so they can restore human connection, find where they truly belong and fully live.

life. Amy, welcome to the podcast today.

Amy Vasterling (03:54)
Thanks for having me, darling. I'm really excited to be here.

Darla Ridilla (03:57)
Yes, I'm super excited to dive in. I read part of your book, The Know, that is coming out. In fact, by the time this releases, it will have just released. In addition to our conversation we just recently had, I got so excited. And I saw also there's an audio book, because I'm big into audio, so I'm super anxious to get it and download it listen to the rest of it. But ⁓ before we just really dive into the nuts and bolts of this conversation, if you want to share a little bit about who you are.

and your background and how you came to all of these realizations.

Amy Vasterling (04:32)
Yeah, I wish it were a short story, but it was my entire lifelong adventure. And I was, I guess, fortunate now to be with people and in places where I got to see something that was so in contrast to who I was that even as a child, I could recognize the home in which I was raised was about disconnection. And that's an odd thing for a child to recognize at such, you know, I'm young age, right? Formative years. But I kind of also don't think I'm alone. What I heard a lot from

advanced readers of my book is you said what I felt, but I couldn't articulate for myself. And I think even as a child, it's right there. So what I did with it is I'm an incredibly curious person and I spent all my years really looking at this.

I watched some family members that didn't play at the highest level at which they could, they played under their ability. And I questioned, why don't all people thrive? And that curiosity later came into the question. If one could collapse narcissism, how would one do so?

But the other thing that was going on during this time is I'm an intuitive and I started to have experiences seeing things that nobody else in the classroom could see. But it was mild and I knew that it was safe and they were just for me until I got into my twenties and then it came on kind of faster. Maybe we'd say more intensely. But what happened is instead of seeking a community, I stayed on my own and I challenged every single thing that came my way.

and I learned something completely different from it. So that informed part of the book, but it also, more importantly, I think just my observation of being curious and observation is really about wisdom. That's what informed these pages and my experience. I had a challenging childhood and even my daughter, I have a gray streak in my hair that you can see here, but.

It came around when I was 17 and my daughter said, mom, you had a really stressful childhood. And I think that's why it just boom showed up. ⁓ but that was an advantage to see there's this model. And I think the spiritual community and all these people are hitting this, come back inside, come back to yourself. But within those modalities, sometimes we have the model existing and the hierarchy and that's not going to have it work.

And I want everybody to be free. I want us to be in our expansive expression. So that's a little bit, mean, I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota and I was athletic and just, you know, some basic things, curious love nature. Yeah.

Darla Ridilla (07:12)
That, you know, there's so many things that we're going to unpack in that. And, you know, it's, it's interesting while I don't think I had as strong as a realization as early as you did in my life, it took me until adulthood to figure out that the childhood I had experienced didn't serve me. And I always was squashed and, you know, labeled the too much, be quiet, you know, you know, even in the school system, like when I referred an email to you about how in first grade.

I liked for some reason to stand while I was doing my classwork. And the teacher was constantly like, Darla, sit down. Darla, sit down. Why, if I'm learning and I'm engaged and I'm not making noise, I'm not distracting other students, let me learn in a way I can. That's an example. My parents also. You referred to, I think it was somewhere I saw it or heard it.

that as children, when we start to express our emotions as toddlers and crying, there's all kinds of information that's coming. Be quiet. Don't be angry. I'll give you something to cry about. All of this information that feeds us. And then we start to shrink inside. And we start to conform to what others expect of us. And then it becomes this lifetime of conforming. And then we suddenly realize, I think a lot of us in middle age are realizing it.

Like I don't even know who I am because I've become what everyone told me to be. Right?

Amy Vasterling (08:38)
Correct. That's absolutely right. And even to speak about your teacher in first grade, that your parents and conventional wisdom at the time would have said, you know, well, the teacher has to have rules in their classroom and this is just the way things are. And I think that that was a problem, particularly for our generation, because I too was a different student in first grade than my classmates and peers. I could see things they couldn't. I mean, there was different things going on. I was highly curious.

Darla Ridilla (09:01)
Yeah.

Amy Vasterling (09:07)
but not rambunctious, just curious. ⁓ So I agree. And I think, too, to go back to the I'll give you something to cry about, it also is as simple and innocuous as a parent saying to a 1 and 1 2 year old or a 3 year old or somewhere in there, they're crying and they say, you're just hungry. When actually the child just pinched their finger or the child is tired. And when we start to take that small autonomy from the child, we're in trouble.

Darla Ridilla (09:09)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (09:37)
And you think about all these years later, that's been a chronic pathway for many of us. No wonder it's hard to not feel stuck, to not question, who am I? Am I hungry? Right? Yeah.

Darla Ridilla (09:50)
Right. Or am I?

Yeah. There's so many ways, directions that could go. You referred to the model. Would you like to share a little bit more about what that is?

Amy Vasterling (10:00)
Yeah, absolutely. So that's what I found is really kind of the pin in this whole issue. And I define it as the control that we assert to maintain or advance our place in the hierarchy. And the struggling point with that is we really can't see it in our lives. I've had many people say to me, well, I'm glad I'm outside of the model. And I think, ⁓ but you're not. know, there are like, we are in it in some ways in our life because it is so.

deeply ingrained.

Darla Ridilla (10:31)
Yeah, there are so many expectations that have been put on us through our lifetime. And it's really a recent thing for me. It's just within the past year. I mean, I've been on this journey for a very long time. But I think it started last year, late last year, where I realized I am not for everybody, and that's OK. And so many of us

We want to be accepted so badly. And I did this in my relationships, my friendships, my family, where I had to get OK with people not being OK with me. And I am who I am. And somewhere out there, there's someone who actually will like me just the way I am.

Amy Vasterling (11:13)
Right. Well, and that is chronic for a lot of us. Is this people pleasing or feeling like I won't be accepted? That's what happens when you don't know who you are. Right? And there's not natural, not permission, but just naturally, this is okay. That's what we expect of you is you to be you, even if it means you're fitful or angry Yeah.

Darla Ridilla (11:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That

certainly fits into that when you talk about the inner knowing, which is the name of your book, No. We lose a sense of that. As we progress through childhood and we grow up and we're constantly told or redirected of what we should be feeling. I can remember I had two siblings. I was six years older than my sister, eight years older than my brother. And so I was the oldest, so I was constantly being redirected. You should be the example, even if my sister

who often would physically hurt me, kick me if I retaliated. You're the older. You have to be example. I'm going to spank you instead. those kind of, like I was responsible for other people's behavior. No wonder I got involved. And I'd like to kind of, you have a different view on narcissism, which I'm super interested to hear more about. No wonder I got involved with narcissists and felt responsible for their behavior.

Amy Vasterling (12:34)
Of course you do. And they love that. They're like, please come over here. Yeah, it's not, it's not hard. yeah, yeah, it's not hard. think too, Darla, I'm going to interject that we're going into an opposite direction, such as when what you're describing, it's a little bit different, but when I was a kid, my parents might say to me, why aren't you as whatever, as your brother or why aren't you as blah, blah, as your sister? Right. And, that

Darla Ridilla (12:38)
You're You're my dream.

Amy Vasterling (13:01)
Left us kind of downtrodden, like, ⁓ I'm never going to amount to anything. I'm never going to measure up. But instead I watched a coach in high school who would say to the team, like we had one skier that it's cross-country skiing, skied two minutes faster on the race. That's, that's extraordinary. Right? I mean, wow. And at the end, everybody was pulled together in ⁓ one space in the school. And he said to that girl, everybody heard it though. I see a girl who really knows how to like advance their time.

Darla Ridilla (13:17)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (13:30)
like lickety split, just something simple. And everybody the next race did far better than they had. And we raced like three times a week. I it was intense. So there's no way we could have improved a few days later. It was a message that stuck. So all these years I thought, what is that?

I learned through a parenting technique, that same thing that my coach did. And I said to one of my children, or to both of my children, it keeps our home safe to put your shoes on the shelf in the back hall. And then about six weeks later, one of the kids put their shoes on the shelf. And I said, I see a child who knows how to keep their home safe. And the other child who was already way down the hallway came back and put their shoes on the shelf. So it's.

cultivating the opposite thing. It is saying, be as smart as your sibling, but it's an opportunity or be as right.

Darla Ridilla (14:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I certainly did see that too, where there was comparison among the siblings. Basically, yeah, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know. But there was competition. Say that again.

Amy Vasterling (14:35)
Comparative, yes, yep.

Comparing, I mean they are, yeah, but it is competition. It is, you're better than now and you're not as good and you're,

Darla Ridilla (14:45)
if you want to share in more detail too how that all ties into your experiences. So what I love about your research is that I think that our society really needs to put more of a value on personal research, whether it's quote unquote in a blind, double blind study or not, or done by someone who has a degree.

I love that yours is like in real time. It's your real experiences. And I think there is such a value in that. And I wish more people would do that. But if you would kind of go deeper into what you've learned about our inner knowing and breaking that model, I'd love to hear about that.

Amy Vasterling (15:24)
Yeah, it's complex. That's a big question. But I think that the first place to start is ⁓ that life is an art. It's not a science. We can use science as a tool to understand things better, but without curiosity being involved in science at a deep degree, I think we're missing the point. So to me, that's why I did it this way is life is an art. And if we accept it as that, then we're going to see it very differently.

I'll move to the result of my work at the two-year mark of writing the book. I realize the result is natural equality, which is kind of a funny way to say it because people often want to say equality, but it's that it's in our nature to be equal. And this is the way that we are equal, which is quite a bit more beautiful than we might think in our head because we've been preconditioned to think this is how equality works. doesn't work.

Darla Ridilla (16:21)
Right,

right.

Amy Vasterling (16:22)
But

it really is about the basis of is this for me or is this not for me? And it's a gentleness inside of this knowing. So I'm going to back up a step and say, we've all known somebody or perhaps had an experience where we knew. And we can particularly think of maybe a grandmother or a grandmother figure in our life who all chaos is breaking loose in the environment and they just stand there and they know.

And so they don't have to get into the drama or the activity and they're not being obstinate. They're simply observing because they know, right? And that knowing with the others in the room, if they take that in and recognize that in that person, they too will become that. And that's the power of it is it changes everything quite simply. And that's why as a child, when we have these pieces paved over,

we become convoluted and confused about who to be. And it's no accident that our societies across the world are super anxious, particularly in the United States, because that is the attachment to outcome. And if we never know who to be for our boss and for our spouse and for our children, am I a good enough parent? Sound familiar? That we are going to be stressed. We're going to be anxious, chronically anxious. So these pieces cause

Darla Ridilla (17:37)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Amy Vasterling (17:48)
kind of this struggle and yet tracking it back seems quite complex. So now let's move into how is this change? What is the antidote? And I'll be honest with you, the first people that go through in my work, the best, ⁓ most aligned client, let's say would be women, highly sensitive people and creatives. And the way that we go into it is we heal our ego.

like meaning we're heading toward that Greek ego of the, am, I am this, my gosh, I feel great, right? From releasing all forms of control. And I have, in my book, I list out ways that we posture in the model through boasting, telling, know, guilting, worry, so on, are really seven of them. And both sides of the model have two that are synonymous, but they represent differently. And the second piece is...

Darla Ridilla (18:22)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (18:45)
We have to heal the trauma and thereby in my work, I came to see when we heal the inner child parts, so the somatic, what is felt within the body, we indeed heal our shadow. And I'm a pattern person. That's how I did this work is I could see the patterns building and then I'm, I guess I'm patient. I don't think I can claim that in truth. I'm going to say it here on oath, but Darla, I went the distance to look at.

Darla Ridilla (19:05)
Yeah.

Amy Vasterling (19:14)
Okay, I don't know the answer to that, so I'm gonna just hang and watch and see what happens.

that pattern is about the expansion of our unique expression. So at the end of my book, which I'm going to say the title of it, it's no KNOW, where the status quo ends and you come to life. I talk about a man named Daniel Kish, poor Daniel. I don't even know him. I can't wait until I get to meet him one day. Daniel was a very physical child and he went blind when he was young.

Darla Ridilla (19:19)
Awesome.

Amy Vasterling (19:46)
just over a year old. And his mother knew he's very physical and I'm not going to hold him back from his environment or the circumstances in which he's in. So Daniel had access to his natural consequence. He'd climb a bookshelf and it would fall or whatever would happen. And through it, he learned how to echolocate. Now the point that's really important about this are two things. Daniel brought something new to us because his mother did not hold him back and let him get hurt.

She let him have the natural consequence. And in my work, if we don't have natural consequence, we will never mature. And that's what we're seeing all over the world is immaturity because we've not, some have not had consequence. And they're looking for consequences. And so they're acting out at extremely high levels that are dangerous for others, right? But the other piece that's there with Daniel is when it came time and they said, Daniel, you know how to do this incredible thing. Why don't you teach it? He said, I don't think so.

Darla Ridilla (20:35)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (20:45)
And that's another sign. Daniel's not an influencer. He's not a, look at me. He questioned it, and that is his knowing. I don't know if that is or is not for me, showing he's already in this relationship with natural equality. He wants not for it, so he's not obsessed on it, and he's not in need in another way. So he's equal to it in saying, I'll make a decision from what I know is true about me, and I'm gonna take time to do that. But the power of it is,

His mother never got in the way. there's instances where he went to the hospital and the doctor's office and so on. But interestingly, she just said, this is who he is and I stand behind it. And this is how he learns to navigate his world. And for some reason, but it's her knowing, that power was so strong, he was never taken away or had any issues or she was never questioned, right? That there's a problem here. So this is the potential of everybody.

And I only have two examples in our entire world that I could find of people who operated off of that. And both examples were because the mother could see in them and knew what was in there and didn't shelter it or protect it, but let it out. And they were the person who said, stand back, this is okay. Nope, it's okay. Right? So.

Darla Ridilla (22:05)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (22:07)
This is the importance is we all have something new to bring to the world. And I don't think we'd be in any of these problems that we're in if we already had been doing this. And it's not a problem that we haven't. I think we can catch up fast, but the people who will go through it first, like the wise woman become an example of it. And when we see somebody that's that powerful, they don't talk much, but they're not shy or quiet and withholding. They know they're calm. can feel it.

We want that because there's nothing quite as powerful as that. It's our power as humans. And it's really a sense, which we could say we can move into intuition, but I want to stick right now at, you know, when you're hungry, you know, when you're angry, these basics are the way that we build into that pattern of what intuition is. All intuition is, is a pattern. That's it. And if we can track the pattern, amazing.

Darla Ridilla (22:38)
Mm-hmm.

That's an-

Amy Vasterling (23:06)
Go ahead, yeah.

Darla Ridilla (23:07)
That's a super interesting perspective because ⁓ I'm intuitive as well. In fact, recently just this year figured out more than I realized and I never thought about it as a pattern.

Amy Vasterling (23:21)
Well, I'll do one better. for probably 15 years, I asked, well, maybe it was actually more than that, but what is intuition and how does it work? Because if you want me to do this, that's fine, but I'm not going to just do it. I need to know what I'm doing. Right. And eventually the information came that, well, and this, people would say, everything's connected. Listen to my tone condescending.

Darla Ridilla (23:23)
Yeah!

Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (23:48)
I want to say it kind of stupid, right? But the reason I felt that way that I couldn't articulate was it's an irrational statement. There's nothing that is true about that. However, so I waited for it. What came is intuition is non-linear, non-time bound, upfront. But on the backside is when the proof comes. Instead of science that proves it, and then they find out, oops.

Could be. But in this case, with intuition and the nonlinear, non-time bound, how I figured that out is this statement came my way, which is it by intuition, which is if everything is connected, therefore there is nothing which cannot be connected. Now that's a statement of logic. And that's what told me the irrational is on the front and that's what's been troubling me when people say everything's connected, because it seems wrong, right?

Darla Ridilla (24:18)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (24:44)
But with the backside, it proves itself and it's a circle and a loop, which made me realize that's a powerful way to approach our intuition.

Darla Ridilla (24:46)
Mm-hmm.

I've been work doing a lot of work with myself, envisioning my future self becoming my future self, but I hear a lot of my my future self already exists, according to quantum physics, somewhere, sometimes. So technically, I already am her. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

Amy Vasterling (25:10)
⁓ Kind of, but I think that it's, if everything is connected, yes, so that is the future self, but, ⁓ everything, I mean, it's all things, and that we can connect it. So it's like, what I'd say more is it's a circle, it's a loop, like, yes, it proves everything indeed is connected, everything, right? Yeah, so I don't know that I would correlate it to the higher self or the true self, but yeah, I think that could

qualify for sure.

Darla Ridilla (25:40)
You know, and you've talked to about how when we do ignore our own knowing that that can lead to anxiety and it can lead to depression, maybe even physical illness. So

I'd love if you have an example too. That would be great to hear a story or maybe of your own life. yeah, I've known that anxiety itself can cause illness. But what it sounds like is there's a deeper root cause to the anxiety.

Amy Vasterling (26:12)
Yep, and everything in my work tracks back to that somatic piece, which is what's going on within the body and how we're relating to it. So I'm gonna think of how I wanna say this, ⁓ you know, anxiety as an example in my life, I'm going through something right now. I mean, curious, right? I'm launching a book. There's a lot of...

Darla Ridilla (26:26)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (26:37)
endings in my life and a lot of new beginnings and I can't see those fully even though I am highly intuitive which is frustrating

There's a breakdown going on in my life as well as this building into the new. So, ⁓ when I've sat somatically and let the anxiety come up, sometimes we have to, like, I've had to do some weird things with my body or, know, like move it, or, or all of a sudden do some funny breathing or, you know, to elicit this thing, to move through and move out. But really that's what we're doing. And if you think about it, our society's.

have refrained from being emotional. I I grew up in a cultural area where people, when somebody died, they would say, don't touch me, I don't wanna cry. I mean, it was very stoic, contrary to who I am, you know? And that's challenging, right? So ⁓ we are in this time when...

Darla Ridilla (27:26)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Amy Vasterling (27:36)
in a way we are expressing through so much emotion to release. It seems kind of irrational, like, my gosh, does this ever end? Indeed, I believe it does. And we reach this epic point where we move into what is more of a quantum experience. And I believe, from my pattern watching, religion and spirituality will fall away because we will see ourselves as that trueness that we are.

and act on it accordingly and therefore take the spot as a creator, but there's gonna be no shenanigans about that. Like, well, I'm a creator. It will be known and that's it, right? The power is already there.

Darla Ridilla (28:14)
Right.

Right,

maybe just knowing it and not having to express it. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Amy Vasterling (28:25)
Yeah,

and not, right, not have, we have nothing to prove, that we know it and therefore we're calm within it.

Darla Ridilla (28:33)
If something in this episode spoke to you? And if you've ever been told you're too much and you still find yourself shrinking in relationships that leave you unseen, this is for you. The truth is you're not too much. You're just accepting too little. And my free pattern breakthrough call will uncover what's really fueling the exhaustion and resentment in your relationships. The patterns that keep pulling you back into the same cycles and what it looks like.

to finally lead from wholeness instead of shrinking, silencing, or settling. No pressure, no pretense, just clarity, truth, and your next step forward. Check the show notes for the link and book your free call today.

Darla Ridilla (29:17)
I like that because I'm in a time in my life where everything is shifting again. And this has happened several times where I'm questioning everything. And I used to be extremely religious when I was a child. And then I walked away from the church and then I am also very spiritual. But I'm questioning every aspect of both of those belief systems right now. Kind of like an a la carte. okay, that feels right. I'll take that piece.

Amy Vasterling (29:28)
Yep.

Darla Ridilla (29:47)
and I'm creating my own little belief system. Is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah.

Amy Vasterling (29:51)
It is, it is. And that's

really powerful because if we take what other people say and we stick with that always without challenging it, we're not going to find out for ourselves. And I say things like this. Nobody should teach intuition. Like this is how, you know, this is that term and in this you're channeling and we got to be careful because they don't know what they're doing. And that's a beautiful thing. If they figure out their terms for it, they figure out their way for it without having these preconceived ideas.

Darla Ridilla (29:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (30:22)
My point being, I think we could be doing vastly different things than we think we are, but we're labeling them and therefore putting limit on them. So I have an anecdotal story, which is kind of silly, but I'm going to tell it. I was in Spain on a tour and the man was talking about Sephardic Jews, which are from their Spanish Jews. And then he was at the stoplight and this woman was talking to him and he said, well, Ashkenazi Jews.

Darla Ridilla (30:36)
Yeah, yeah.

Amy Vasterling (30:49)
are known to be the most intelligent people on earth. And then I got home and my family happens to be Ashkenazi Jew by scandal. So I told this to my daughter and she stopped and she said, well, mom, in Judaism, I believe it's acceptable to challenge what you believe. As a matter of fact, I think it's encouraged. And I said, even ⁓ Jews by scandal are smarter. She's getting that like that. But really the truth of it is,

Darla Ridilla (31:13)
Ha!

Amy Vasterling (31:17)
They are taught to challenge. And that, I believe, is what makes them more intelligent. It's not raw intelligence. And that's how I learned everything I know, is by challenging inside, internally. How does that work? And I think what I like about that, and what I like about that for our world is, Darla, then you arrive in your intuitive state the way that you are, and I arrive in the way that I am. And that is what makes it beautiful, because you're going to be able to expand in directions

I can't or don't want to and vice versa, right? And that is what will make an incredible world.

Darla Ridilla (31:54)
Yeah, that individuality that each experience is going to be different. And that's OK. And that's exactly how it was designed. And I love how you say about challenging, because that's certainly something that was not done in my household. the beautiful, besides the fact of my daughter, my first husband, one of the beautiful gifts he gave to me is he questioned religion quite a bit. And it's why I walked away from it.

And he would ask my youth pastor questions, not because he was trying to challenge. He honestly wanted to know, why do you believe this way? Why is it this way? And they became angry with him. And in a way, they really turned him off because he really just honestly wanted to know. And when we start to question anything, no matter what it is, I think that's when we do find our answers. And my answer is going to be different from somebody else's.

Amy Vasterling (32:49)
I agree, but that's beautiful. And when we make choices from that place, there's more power in it. Like, you know, there are hot buttons of things, maybe I won't name something specific, but where humanity has choices to make across the board. within that, if we get to make our own choice, if we know that that's safe and right for us, then if it doesn't work out right, we are gonna live the consequences of that and learn for us.

Darla Ridilla (32:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (33:17)
So it's like we have to let go a little bit more in some ways and particularly in parenting that children need to have those age appropriate natural consequences so that they can learn how to navigate their world and know how to deal with those things, you and then they'll know as an older adult how to really navigate them well. Yeah.

Darla Ridilla (33:39)
Absolutely, I was literally going to go right back to that. ⁓ Yes, I think consequences in childhood are so important because when there aren't, I think that does lead to a form of narcissism in some level because there is a sense of entitlement. And I think we'd have a lot less of that in our society if people had consequences. Even as adults, we have to have consequences. If you do this, this will happen. ⁓

I have found in, you like in my dating world or my friend world that when I've said, because you did this, I'm reacting this way. There's been such pushback. I'm going to see someone tonight, which there's probably going to be one of those conversations going on where he did not interact with me in a way that I wanted. And so I'm going to withdraw my interest in him. And he's probably not going to take it very well, but.

Amy Vasterling (34:34)
service.

Darla Ridilla (34:35)
That behavior showed, actually his behavior showed me a lot about him. And that's who he is. That's where he is. And I honor that. Right. Right. But this is where I am. And that's not what I'm looking for.

Amy Vasterling (34:43)
Yes. Yeah.

Right, right, and we're in ⁓ quite a high level time when people are going to learn. You know, I used to say to help clients and myself understand that some people aren't growing because we need society to have some stability. So I used to say, we can't all be the monk in the monastery. So instead, some of us are the monk in the monastery among the masses.

And some of us are still in this other state. I don't say it's unawakened, it's just in a different state so that they can hold that stability for our world so it doesn't all change at once. That might be too much. They aren't ready.

Darla Ridilla (35:33)
I do have,

yeah, there are a lot of people that aren't ready. And I hope that changes soon. It is OK. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. When you refer to ⁓ the exact words you used on narcissism.

Amy Vasterling (35:36)
That's okay. It will. I think it will. Yeah.

Narcissistic social disordering maybe. Right.

Darla Ridilla (35:51)
That's it. That was I was trying to find. Yes. So

I'm interested in so I'm working with a coach and she has me doing this really difficult exercise, which I push back hard on a little bit, but I'm doing it. She wanted me. She calls it a 30 30. She wanted me to. She said in life we need to be in balance. And when we get out of balance, the universe will kind of bring situations into our life to kind of try to wake us up.

And one of the things she said is we need a balance of narcissism and empathy. And when we go to one extreme or the other, that's where things go awry. And I had to make a list of 30 positive attributes of having narcissism, not being abusive, but a form of narcissism and 30 drawbacks to being an empath. And it's, I see it in black and white, so I'm really struggling. And I don't know if your research or your ⁓ findings

help with that or if I'm in a different direction than where you are but I'm just curious what your thoughts are.

Amy Vasterling (36:54)
Yeah, well I think I wouldn't define what they're saying as narcissism, but that's their definition and I don't know that definition physically, but for me, what I came to see is ⁓ I've broken some narcissists, so three times, one person twice and one another person once, and it really took holding the truth, meaning, I mean that sounds kind of silly, but.

Darla Ridilla (36:59)
Right. Right. Right.

Amy Vasterling (37:16)
saying something that was undeniably true. And when you say that again and again, gently without any intensity in your, know, your in your know, that they can't dispute it and they will break and tend to say the thing that's true. Like I'm so obtuse or I've been so rude here because there's fear going on. And I would say that there are two sides to the model.

One is in the enabler and one is the authoritarian. And the one that's more the authoritarian tends to be the one that we think of as the narcissist, which is won't let you in and so on. But I feel that that has to do with social disordering from having needs gone unmet. Or in the case of the examples I have, I feel that that person was threatened or scared at a point that hit them psychologically at such an instant.

That they couldn't repair. couldn't, their psyche wasn't strong to deal with it or to, you know, or it was such a big trauma instead of repressing it, stayed floating where, where that hangs is their solar plexus. I could see that as a child in one of my parents, their narcissism was hidden behind a brick wall. So this is part of the process. Well, on the other side, we have the enabler, which is another form of control. So both are forms of control. And that's the problem in the model is there's a pinpoint and then it says.

Pendulum and the pendulum is speeding up because it's like I can't I can't do anything but speed up I'm on a fixed point schedule here. You know, what am gonna do? So to me, I'm just exploring again through observation What is narcissistic social disordering? But as far as I am in that is it's a needs based problem that the child or at some point they had their needs met or

Darla Ridilla (38:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (39:03)
violated in some way saying I have this need and that was angrily dealt with that the child retreated deep within and then did everything to thwart in this one angle. And if you really look at some narcissists, you'll see they have a bent on it in certain areas and aspects. They don't do all of the shenanigans, just certain ones. And so, you know, that is part of where I'm heading, but I don't

I say specifically, I'm not defining it as a psychologist or what the dictionary says. I'm simply thinking of it as an enclosed unit that is prone to thwarting to never see themselves and never make true connection with others. And that's sad. But the other piece is they have to fall on their own sword is what I see, which I think everybody kind of knows that. So it's the other side of the model, the enabler that is my person because they can

Darla Ridilla (39:54)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (40:01)
shift out of the model. And once they shift out of the model, they become an example. And who knows? If things really are speeding up in a powerful way and changing to more of what is quantum, the possibility of us just looking at somebody and seeing them in their knowing and us shifting to our knowing could be possible. Maybe not in our lifetime, maybe in a bunch of years, ⁓ I'm not going to, you know, until I see it, I'm not going to deny that that's a possibility based on the patterns. Yeah.

Darla Ridilla (40:31)
Yeah, it's an interesting perspective because up to this point from a psychological standpoint, I've always said vehemently, no, they can't change because they're hardwired. And yes, I agree. I do think it comes from something very deep wounding in their childhood. ⁓ I've been with three narcissists and all three of them, their mothers played a very strong point, whether they either denied them love and gave it to somebody else instead, or they were controlling. But

If we look at it from this perspective, if somehow, some way, they were able to take that brick wall down, because there is a wall, and get in touch with their knowing, and be willing to be vulnerable because there's a lack of vulnerability there, who knows what could happen?

Amy Vasterling (41:20)
Well, and you're right on point, Darla. That is the main piece is the vulnerability. So I say in my work, if we have fear, we won't self express. And the middle part of that is vulnerability. But I think you and I could probably have a four hour conversation where we tried to apply vulnerability as a woman with a partner, with a boss, with the community. And it was not accepted. It was no, thank you, ma'am. Go away. So we didn't really have a shot at moving through.

Darla Ridilla (41:25)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (41:49)
to the self-expression because we were shut down. And that's part of the model. That's how the model perpetuates to some degree.

Darla Ridilla (41:58)
Yeah, absolutely. I work with a lot of high achieving women. we're in this corporate world where I used to be. And, whoa, vulnerability, especially when you work in an executive suite, that is not shown. That's considered weakness. It's run this place while I'm gone, and you better do it right. And don't make mistakes. And power, have to be. And especially a woman in a man's world, think it's been. And I would love to see this shift, ⁓ where we kind of have to

Amy Vasterling (42:10)
That's right.

That's right.

Darla Ridilla (42:28)
ourselves to get respect. ⁓ there's there's a constant invalidation. I read something somewhere yesterday about how we you know we've compromised our softness or integrity or knowing our our paycheck. You know everything seems in jeopardy if we don't conform.

Amy Vasterling (42:44)
Thank

Right on, and I think that that's the problem is women are behaving like men because again, we're conditioned to say do it the way that it works. It doesn't work these other ways. know, Darla, for some reason it's tracking for me to say this and I kind of felt it earlier too, but when I mentioned that I work with highly sensitive people, I believe they are the change makers and that's the opposite of what we think of as this.

know, train these people to be aggressive in these universities so that they get out there and they win and they do and they are competitive and all these pieces. But what I came to see pretty early on is the highly sensitive person is really set up this way that what's good for the highly sensitive is good for all people. But what's good for all people is not good for the highly sensitive.

And so if they set the tone for our world societies, and I'm not saying that they're better or so on, these people don't want to come forward and do this. Trust me. That's the beauty of them is they're, they have self doubt. are aware of, am I the one? But their ability to be sensitive to the things in our world that others can't see and understand like a highly sensitive person in a classroom with you now, and you saying, I want to stand up as a seven year old.

would say to the teacher in there knowing, you need to let her stand up. And the teacher would say, OK, because the child has no resistance to it. The child knows. Another little example is in a classroom setting, a highly sensitive child, the problem isn't learning how to read. The problem is learning how to know about horses or know about trains or something.

So the teacher can simply say to that kid, because they tend to be also very altruistic, like they're not going to do anything naughty, good mannered, ⁓ that go to the library and ask the librarian how to figure that out. And the child will teach themselves to read. And other children seeing that will be encouraged to say, ⁓ OK, we can just teach ourselves. We don't have to go through the phonics book and so on. So I think we're headed into some new things that way, too.

Darla Ridilla (44:39)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (45:01)
easier classrooms, hopefully. Yeah.

Darla Ridilla (45:02)
I, yeah,

I so hope so because everyone learns at a different way. I know of a, of a family member who was extremely intelligent, but in school he was failing because the curriculum and the way that the, the teaching was set up was not conducive to how he learned, but there was no give or take to give him a way to absorb the information in his, in his method.

Amy Vasterling (45:31)
Mm-hmm. Well, right, and I think having a more open room mindset of the teacher saying, don't know, that's a nice way to move yourself slowly out of the model. Just that is to say, I don't know. Because then we're curious about what is the possibility and the potential. Is there any possibility and potential? Is it realistic to have a classroom where there's a kid that learns very differently?

Darla Ridilla (45:36)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (45:56)
Or do they need to be in an environment where it's super free and open so that they can have their own way to learn? You know, mean, these are all questions, but the idea is we keep exploring so that we do really well by the student. Yeah.

Darla Ridilla (46:11)
Yeah, I can remember just even being new in jobs and saying, I don't know, and feeling free. I actually missed when I was new and felt I was able to say that, because I would often say, I don't know the answer to that question. I'm new. I'll find out. There was something that was so relaxing about that, not having to have all the answers.

Amy Vasterling (46:25)
Right.

That's absolutely right. And our society, that's probably another part of anxiety is we are told you better know it all. And then we have know-it-alls and we're like, you know nothing.

Darla Ridilla (46:34)
Right.

Right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, my my own personal coaching style is just to ask questions. It takes the pressure off me. I take my lived experience and my curiosity. I use more of a curiosity of okay, you just shared this. Well, let's dig into that. But asking people questions because I believe they have the answers within themselves. They just don't know how to access them.

Amy Vasterling (46:46)
Yeah. Right? We've all met them.

Mm-hmm, absolutely. it depends. I think it's unique to each situation, but I absolutely always ask the question. Yeah, and you know, Darla, your coach gal is coming to mind, and I think I would replace narcissism with needs.

Darla Ridilla (47:21)
Mm-hmm.

Interesting, share more. Yeah.

Amy Vasterling (47:30)
She may, well,

I mean, I think, you know, I mean, we're talking about how in my work, narcissism correlates to perhaps unmet or sort of a damaged needs situation, but we all have needs. And I feel that's ⁓ a massive piece that caused this model to come into effect is, well, I don't get to have that need. So I just keep going and, you know, and then we feel badly about ourselves because we're like, where's the support?

Darla Ridilla (47:42)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (47:57)
And we feel like it's true that we don't have support and then people are like, be grateful you had that support over there. you're like, but it's not true for us. So I also would say in part of that narcissism, you know, being that qualifier or list, could be wants too. And it's okay. Some people in the spiritual will be like, wants aren't okay. I think wants are okay. It's who we are, but I really feel our relationship with all of that will be

Darla Ridilla (47:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (48:27)
vastly different when we move forward in our world societies and out of this model more and more.

Darla Ridilla (48:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

Because there's, I'm not condoning the behavior and I'm not saying it's okay, but

I do recognize that the people that have been abusive in my life are doing that because their needs weren't met somewhere in their lifetime and that's their knee-jerk reaction to it.

Amy Vasterling (48:58)
But it's not an excuse. mean, the thing that I say

is, you know, my abuser as a child, well, several, I mean, they never came forward and said, hey, I'm sorry about that. I mean, I remember six years later saying to my daughter, hey, I told you something or said something in response to something you had said, and I don't agree with that any longer. And I just want you to know, and she could have cared less, but I thought it's really important too for kids to see. Parents are evolving too.

Darla Ridilla (49:09)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (49:27)
We're changing and we're seeing ourselves differently and we do things. I it's not like parent, you know, I was wrong. It's not about all that. It's just, she sees how to be an adult through me.

Darla Ridilla (49:39)
Yeah, and a big thing ⁓ that's important to me is breaking generational trauma. When you talked about being the one, I feel like in my family unit, the one that's been, I came into this lifetime to break that. And while that's not being very well received by many family members, at the same time, my catalyst was my daughter getting pregnant, and I have a new generation, and I made a lot of mistakes, and I was learning about it in my certification.

Amy Vasterling (49:46)
Yes.

Darla Ridilla (50:08)
and sitting down with her and being like, you're right, that sucked. I shouldn't have done it that way. I never agreed with every perspective, but it gave us an opportunity. And there's probably more conversations to come of, you know, and also her seeing me change how I live my life, not being this crazy person chasing love for all the wrong reasons, you know, seeing my evolution, I hope in some ways that it inspires her too

Amy Vasterling (50:36)
Darla, that's, mean, that I think is an amazing thing to say because that's exactly what I, why I believe people are gonna be willing to leave the model is they want it for their kids. And there's nothing quite like that, but breaking that generational energy. And I wanna say too, what I see with narcissism is I do believe that it can be born into somebody, not just cultivated. And I think that that is really generational energy, that the family has.

disallowed that need and it's become confused and contorted. And now it's in this child that arrives. And I did just say on another interview today that, but I'll share it here too, that the children come to teach the parents. It's not the other way around. It's very rare that the parents are the teachers to the children. And if we really understood that, life would be so much easier. It would be but

Conventional wisdom says parents have more experience. They have more life behind them, blah, blah, blah. And we say to children, don't challenge the parent. The parent is your, you're to respect the parent. But in truth, I've lived pretty well with my children not, they can challenge me for sure. And I didn't always like it. wasn't, was right on the money, but, ⁓ but the results it's yielded for them and what it's shown me in the longterm, very, very well worth it. Right?

Darla Ridilla (51:49)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (52:02)
to just stay put and watch and say, okay, yeah, what am I learning from this? Why is it triggering me? I mean, I even remember my daughter saying something to me once and I said, I hear you and I have to go because for some reason it's causing something in me and that's all mine. And so it might take me a week, but I'll be back to you on this for sure. And I'm hearing what you're saying and I feel it's important, know, just to validate what's, cause it's kind of a big deal, but ⁓ yeah. And then I had to circle around with myself. It's all my junk.

and then came back to her and said, here's where I am on that. And then she fought that for about a year and a half, and then she was saying it to other people at the year and a half mark, what I had said.

Darla Ridilla (52:42)
Yeah, totally. I had a previous guest who talked about this, where she adopted several children through the CPS system. And of course, boy, you talk about a challenging child. But she realized, this is an opportunity for me. This trigger is not about this child. This child has a need, and I need to meet it. But I need to meet it from a grounded space. So I need to work out whatever is going on in here right now.

Amy Vasterling (52:43)
Just let it.

Hmm.

That's right, I say dealing with it behind the scenes.

Darla Ridilla (53:12)
100%.

Amy Vasterling (53:14)
It's important.

Darla Ridilla (53:16)
It really is. There are so many directions we could go with this conversation. ⁓ What haven't I asked you that you really want to share?

Amy Vasterling (53:26)
I think Darla interjected so I've already said a lot of things that I wanted to say and thank you for letting me do that. Yeah, that's a great, great question. It's always one that I ask all the time too. ⁓ I think we've covered the majority of it. I think that the main thing that I can share is I actively do this work with people to help facilitate the direction through because I'm the only one talking about this model. mean, there's nobody that I've met, like it's mine.

Darla Ridilla (53:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Vasterling (53:56)
observation and realization. if we don't leave the model, and I'm not threatening there, like you can't, you know, it's going to be hard to be spiritual. You know, I say this, we're here to really live and express and experience our life. So we're not here to have to force ourselves to meditate or have self care. When we're really with ourselves, we will need not for any of that. And so the idea is we use these tools as we need them, but only

And then we move through and move through and move out. And then here we are in this completely different experience where we kind of become an untouchable. It's like our power is magic. And that's how I want all of us to live. mean, think about a world like that. How beautiful.

Darla Ridilla (54:44)
Yeah, I'm just, you know, kind of absorbing that. And yeah, I think it would be a kinder world and much more. ⁓

Authentic for sure. Right?

Amy Vasterling (54:56)
But naturally, right? It's, it's, exists

as it is because it's natural to us and we're being true. That's, that's the true power of it. We've been in such an extreme contortion of how humans live. It's no wonder our cortisol is running like crazy, but if we stop and, ⁓ what is it called? Regulate? I feel like, no, get into it.

Darla Ridilla (55:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (55:25)
get angry or let the emotion out or blow up at the person because you might realize that person isn't for you. But we know full well the person that meets us and we blow up on them and they're like, what do you need? They're there for life. Like they really love us, right? They're there to help us move through. So I feel our emotions can help us see the story and it's very telling when they play out.

Darla Ridilla (55:42)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (55:54)
how people treat us. I for years by ⁓ my ex-husband, I was treated like my emotions were vilified. And I'd ask for simple things, clearly, I need tenderness. I'm struggling with something. And he'd look at me and then walk away. And I was like, how can you not get this? How can you not want to care? And yet, if asked, would be saying to me, you are the second most important thing to me in my life.

Darla Ridilla (56:22)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Vasterling (56:22)
And I think

then you must not be very important to yourself, but you're not aware of it, right? Because you look like you think you are, but I don't think you really are. It's hard. Yeah, it's hurtful.

Darla Ridilla (56:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

It is. is. It is. I'm beginning to learn. You talked about the sit back and watch that people's reactions to what I do or say actually tell me way more how they react to my boundaries and standards. It tells me way more than what they've said in the past or done in the past. And it's been interesting. It forces me to slow down a little bit too, which has been a bad pattern of mine to dive in too quickly.

What came to mind during this conversation too is I just last night watched a documentary on Tom Petty. I'm a musician, so I love seeing how other musicians got their path. And something he said in the interview was done way back in the 80s. He said, a lot of musicians have basically who they are in private and who they are on the stage. And he was like, that's too much to keep track of.

when I come home, I'm going to be this person. And when I'm out in public, I'm this person. He said, I'm just who I am wherever I am. And I so love that. Right?

Amy Vasterling (57:37)
That's right on, right? But it's harder

to do it than it is, you know, mean, like it can be hard won in today's era.

Darla Ridilla (57:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100%. This has been a really great conversation. I'm super excited that the book is coming out. If people want to learn more about you, read your book, I don't know if you work with people, but how can they find you that we'll put in the show notes?

Amy Vasterling (58:05)
Yeah Darla, it's just at my website and it's pretty easy. It's Amy, A-M-Y, and then Vasterling, and my name is on this too, but V as in Victor, A as in Amy, and then Sterling like the metal with an E. So amyvasterling.com, everything's there. Yes, I do work with people, of course I do. I'm a teacher, public speaker, know, yes. Be happy too.

Darla Ridilla (58:27)
Awesome.

This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for coming on. It's really given me kind of an opportunity to explore how I feel about narcissism. My coach is gonna be very happy to hear this because she's been asking me to do that too, to kind of be less black and white about it. ⁓ So thank you for helping me process that a little bit too.

Amy Vasterling (58:50)
Darla, you're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed every moment. Yeah, it's been great.

Darla Ridilla (58:54)
Awesome. And to my listeners, you have the power.

Amy Vasterling (58:55)
Thanks.

Darla Ridilla (58:58)
Thank you for listening to You Have the Power, the road to truth, freedom and real connection. If you're a high achieving woman who looks like she's got it all together, but behind closed doors you feel dismissed, depleted or stuck in cycles that no longer serve you, know this, you're not too much, you are just then accepting too little. Every episode is your space to unpack the real reasons powerful women stay stuck and how to create relationships that feel safe, honest and fully aligned.

without sacrificing your fire. If today's episode hit home, share it, subscribe, leave a review and send it to another woman who's ready to stop performing and start leading. Want to go deeper? Check the show notes for the links to connect with me or take the next step in your journey. I'd love to hear what resonated for you. Keep tuning in because you have the power to stop shrinking, speak your truth and rebuild your relationships from radical self-trust.

And I'm right here walking this road with you.