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Heal Yourself Podcast
A podcast diving into all aspects of healing; from nurturing your relationship with yourself, to functional medicine insights, to transforming your money story, we're here to empower you with the knowledge and tools to create lasting change.
Heal Yourself Podcast
Episode 69: Breaking Free: The Journey to Authentic Relationships
Ever found yourself constantly questioning whether your relationship struggles are normal or something more concerning? In this powerful conversation with relationship mentor Katie Mae Webb, we uncover the hidden dynamics that keep us trapped in toxic relationships and the path toward authentic connection.
Katie shares her personal journey of being in a challenging marriage for 15 years and how that experience ultimately led her to help thousands of women nationwide create the relationships they truly deserve. The most revealing red flag she identifies isn't dramatic conflict but persistent confusion—that nagging feeling that something isn't right despite your best efforts to make things work.
We explore the surprising science behind why leaving difficult relationships feels nearly impossible. Your nervous system actually becomes addicted to relationship chaos, creating physical and emotional dependencies comparable to substance withdrawal. This explains why logic alone isn't enough to break free from painful patterns.
About Katie:
Katie Mae is a life coach and relationship mentor behind a movement that's helped thousands of high achieving women nationwide stop settling for shallow relationships and start creating the intimacy and connection they actually crave. She's known for her no-nonsense yet faith-centered approach, teaching women how to communicate with confidence, set unapologetic boundaries and finally experience the relationships they were designed for. Whether it's marriage or business, it all begins with the most important relationship, the one we have with ourselves. Katie is here to show powerhouse women how to stop being small and start stepping boldly into the women God designed them to be.
Find Katie:
http://www.katiemaecoaching.com/
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Welcome to the Heal Yourself Podcast, where we dive deep into all things healing. I'm Denise, a speech-language pathologist and a self-love coach for adults and teens.
Speaker 2:And I'm Kira, a traditional naturopath and functional nutritionist, and we're here to guide you through the transformative process of healing your body, mind and soul From the latest in functional medicine.
Speaker 1:Of healing your body, mind and soul From the latest in functional medicine to nurturing your relationship with yourself, healing trauma and even transforming your money story. We're here to empower you with the knowledge and tools to create lasting change.
Speaker 2:So, whether you're looking to heal physically, emotionally or spiritually, join us as we explore the many paths to wholeness and wellness. Hey everyone, it is Denise and Kira today. Welcome back to the podcast. Today we are speaking with Katie Mae Webb. I'll have you fully introduce yourself or Denise will introduce you, but we are talking about relationships, Such an important one to talk about.
Speaker 1:Yes, ma'am. All right, so I will introduce Katie. Katie Mae is a life coach and relationship mentor behind a movement that's helped thousands of high achieving women nationwide stop settling for shallow relationships and start creating the intimacy and connection they actually crave. She's known for her no-nonsense yet faith-centered approach, teaching women how to communicate with confidence, set unapologetic boundaries and finally experience the relationships they were designed for. Whether it's marriage or business, it all begins with the most important relationship, the one we have with ourselves. Katie is here to show powerhouse women how to stop being small and start stepping boldly into the women God designed them to be. I love that Welcome.
Speaker 3:I'm so grateful for AI. I'm not going to lie. They do a great job writing bios. I love it.
Speaker 2:Okay, I want to kick this off with a question. Denise, I'm totally taking over right now, but I'm curious Katie, how did you get into this?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's all part of the journey. Such a good question. My background was in human and family development. I always thought like on some level, I was going to be a therapist one day. I just loved I've always loved helping people and, ironically, I was like the person everyone came to me with since I was like little like with their boyfriend problems Like I, just I don't. It was like God given wisdom, I don't know Right, like just clarity and insight, which is also what brings me into the irony of my situation, which is how I ended up in a in a very challenging marriage, and how I chose that relationship for myself. But, yeah, so I I didn't end up becoming a therapist. So I, um, I didn't end up becoming a therapist.
Speaker 3:Um, I started, I went and worked in like higher education. When I graduated from my undergrad there was like no jobs and I went into a higher ed and, um, then I was kind of pondering what I was going to do and just I, to be clear, my, my ex-husband is a big part of my journey and how I ended up doing what I do. We met in high school. Uh, we were together for 20 years, married 15. So I like didn't know life without him. And, um, we had a very challenging marriage, a very, very challenging marriage marriage, very, very challenging marriage, and I was just trying to figure out how to navigate that very challenging relationship.
Speaker 3:And in all of this effort, I put so much focus into what I could do and what I could control and it led me onto my healing path of how much um take basically taking everything that I learned from like school, from like the Gottman methods and relationships and how to talk. I also realized, man, I have a big part of toxicity in our relationship and I need to do some work on this. And that empowered me tremendously and I was like man, I would love to like help other women learn this and, and I would love to like help other women learn this. And, yeah, I got a job working in coaching Not me coaching, but I was actually working at an agency for a prominent life coach and they trained me in coaching. So I knew what I was talking about and I was like, oh man, this is what I want to do.
Speaker 3:Like I forget, I forget therapy, I'm doing, this is what I'm called to do. I was like, oh man, this is what I want to do. Like I forget now, forget therapy, I'm doing, this is what I'm called to do. I just loved it with all my heart and I knew I could help women. And COVID, like 2020 hit, yeah, and I started to take my own clients and I started to put my message and my story out on Facebook and I would just yeah, that's kind of how it all just kind of happened very organically nice.
Speaker 1:I love that. Well, you did mention 50, 15 years, being married, 20 years um together. Can you share what the breaking point was for you, like the moment you knew you had to leave, because 15 years is a lot, 20 years is a lot, right, so what?
Speaker 3:was the breaking point. I know I saw that. I was like you know that's such a good question because there were so many breaks along the way.
Speaker 2:Well, and can I piggyback? On that too, Like along with that. When did you realize it was a relationship that wasn't serving you it?
Speaker 3:was so interesting because, like I said, I mean throughout our whole marriage, it was like I knew on some level. I knew, going back to even this, like early, early on. I remember even wanting to call off my own wedding, like I didn't have a piece about the relationship, but I had been with him for so long by that point and it was like I just talked, I just gaslit myself out of it, was like Nope, these are just cold feet, feelings Like just this is what we're doing and let's go. And then when you're married, you don't get divorced. You know, like you just you just stick it out.
Speaker 3:And marriage is hard and you've got a really hard one and you know, know, katie, you're really challenging too.
Speaker 3:So there's lots of things involved in all of this and um, so yeah, that's a very like roundabout question, I think. As far as when I noticed I I knew that I was in a difficult relationship very early on, how toxic I didn't really truly understand or know until I started my own healing journey. I mean, truthfully that's, and because you can't, you just you're. So I always my one of my favorite sayings is like you can't read the label from inside the bottle, and so, while you can have great clarity and you know perspective on other people's situations, when you're in it and you're so used to this kind of up and down with the, you know Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde and you never know who you're going to get and that's just your normal. You're just like, well, this is just what it is Right. So it wasn't until like it was like four, four marriage therapists later and uh, I had one pull me aside and was like, hey, if you're going to stay, you should research a certain disorder.
Speaker 3:And not to say but you should research this. And you know, and I was at the time even then I was like that's ridiculous, like that's no, but um. So when I fully started to lean into like my healing and my awareness and set boundaries and I realized that what I thought was looking like progress with us was actually just better manipulation on his part, and I started to notice an actual trend in behavior. And this only happened because I started to get stronger and more clear and I got more validation from coaches and therapists and everything. And I was like, oh, I am no, I'm not, I'm not crazy.
Speaker 3:Like this is, this is really, this is really bad, you know your healing journey led to that a thousand percent, but the cool part about this is that this relationship led me to my healing journey. Right, right, right. But the cool part about this is that this relationship led me to my healing journey right, Right, right.
Speaker 1:So it's like full circle, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly, yeah. So it was like over a decade before I could really like pinpoint, like this is not your normal hard marriage or, you know, relationship, and I think this was one of the questions. So I don't want to like jump ahead, but I think what I want to really like communicate to women is like how do you recognize it?
Speaker 1:I think one of the questions was like how do you recognize it early on or earlier on, and it was like my Right, that was the next question is that so many women stay because they think I can handle this, or it's not that bad, or for the kids, or whatever the excuses that we tell ourselves. Right, because we're very, our brain is very intelligent. It's also made to for survival, so we can definitely, our analytical brain can definitely come up with so many excuses. But how did you begin to recognize, you know, what you're experiencing as toxic, not normal? Because we were probably justifying it as oh, this is normal, this is this, this is how he is, or whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no for sure. And this is the biggest red flag I tell women to look for is confusion, and I know that sounds kind of sounds kind of vague, but I mean like when you, when you find yourself in a place of like, it's one thing to be like, look, I'm, I'm, we're, we're in a tough spot, right, like we're not seeing eye to eye, but when you are really genuinely confused and you find yourself constantly ruminating and asking yourself like, uh, is this normal, is this okay? Should this be happening? Like when you find yourself in that kind of state, or if you're finding yourself in that kind of state, that is a major, major red flag, right. And so looking, looking back on it, when you say stay, I literally remember laying in bed, just bawling my eyes out, thinking about and taught, and talking to God, and being like yo, like I can't just leave my kids, like I, I've stayed with this man for almost 20 years, I can stick, I should, I should be able to stick it out for another, you know.
Speaker 3:And then I remember thinking like, because I'm going to lose 50% of control over my kids and and any woman listening to this, y'all, like you're trying to do the best you can do not judge yourself. That's just don't. Like it's, it's useless, like it matters what you do from this point on, not from what you have done. Right, like we have all been doing the best we can through our childhood makeup and our conditioning, and, uh, I just remember very specifically, like hearing, like yeah, but is this like the relationship you want them to grow up and have? Right, and by staying you might be able to have a little bit more control over what's going on in their lives. But what kind of mom are you going to be to them under this consistent stress? I mean I was irritable, I was getting migraines every weekend. I mean I was irritable, I was getting migraines every weekend.
Speaker 1:I mean and this was while I was working on myself you guys, I mean you were in survival mode and I mean I'm chiming in because this is my story right now. We were in survival mode. And I mean, obviously, when you're in survival mode, all of the illnesses and everything is going to show up and you know the stress like because we're also addicted to that cortisol and to that stress and to those emotions.
Speaker 3:Thank you for saying that yes, yes, a thousand percent, yes. So that being just all of the things that I'm like I could be, I just knew I'm like if I could at least just create safety on my own, because if I stay, I'm training them up to get used to that kind of chaos and know that that's what love and that's what marriage and that's what relationship is and looks like. And, yes, can I protect them from all chaos moving forward from here? And is divorce going to be really hard on them too? Absolutely. But can I also step back and say, yeah, but that's also why I left right, like now I know I can have those empowering conversations with my kids. It's like this isn't what I wanted for you, right? But like I also want you to understand that I never want you to tolerate any kind of something that resembles that kind of relationship either, you know, and we can't do it with just words.
Speaker 1:So, like I love how you just also mentioned, like I like, to me, it was like what am I showing them? It doesn't matter that my kids are older, you know. However, what am I showing them? Because just using the words, or like if I tell them I don't want you in a relationship like this or be careful, but what am I doing If I'm staying, I'm showing them that it's just words, don't mean anything. Right, I'm not being true to myself and being and living in integrity. So I feel that it's just also, yes, it's painful to lose the 50 or whatever. That is like the control that I think you know we've talked about it being an illusion. We're not in control of anything. So it's, yeah, it's better to show them the boundaries right, to show them what you can do and to give them the example versus just talking about it.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep. Well, and I think so, I can't. Well, I can't speak as someone who was divorced, because I actually got divorced when I was 21, but it wasn't a toxic relationship, so I won't get into that. However, I will say that I see so many people stay in relationships that are not serving them toxic or not because of the kids, because I don't know what I'm going to do, because we split things 50-50 and I can't move to an apartment. I'm going to need a roommate, like so many excuses. So for the woman listening who's like, no, I can't, I can't leave due to X, y, z. What would you say to her?
Speaker 3:First of all, my heart goes out to you a thousand percent, like wholeheartedly, because so and I say this with like complete and total love and total love. What Denise already talked about is the the hardest thing that we have to do while we're in the situation is take a look at ourselves and realize that this is a true addiction like this. This is actually like we are addicted to, this chaos our bodies and our systems are addicted to. If you talk about, like what Denise just talked about, the cortisol, like you know, dopamine combination, there's a Dr Romney is an amazing expert on narcissistic abuse and just toxic relationships and she just talked about this being literally like almost as addictive of coming off of a heroin addiction. Oh, when it comes to you, like just as a system, right, but then let's talk about the stories we tell ourselves, right, because it's like I want to believe the lie. No-transcript, this can't work. My family falls apart to your point. I have to have 50% off my kids, I have to find a place to live, I all the financial stuff I realize all right. So, yes, we go and look. Some of that is logistically reasonable. You need to think through all of that. It's, but it's not the reason to stay, because everything that, like you literally need to get out of is and and be the best version of yourself and be able to make the money you've never even known. You could, um, be the mom you never knew you could be, have the energy. Y'all think you feel good. Now you have no idea, like you. Just, you don't even know what good feels like until you've been removed for like at least a couple of years and been like on a detox cleanse of all of that cortisol rushing through your body. Right, like um, but, yes, so for. So I don't. I'm sorry I'm getting off track, but to your point, kara, yes, like um, I.
Speaker 3:If I believe that lie, that is my, if I believe, if I, if I stop believing the lie that somehow I could work on myself enough to heal this marriage, and, um, that's great, because then it's all in my power and I don't have to work, I don't have to wait on him, and then I have full control over it and then I can keep my family together. And so I get women like this all the time, right, like there's this, this massive over-responsibility, and, like I, they love me because I call them on their bullshit. And so they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, tell me all the things I'm doing wrong, right, like I want it, like they don't, they want it to be their fault. And I did too, like I was just like somebody called me out on my part because it was always so, like him when we were in therapy um, not a fan of couples therapy at all, we can talk about that. But, um, when, uh?
Speaker 3:But in that, in that moment, it's like, yes, make it my fault, make it my problem, so I can fix it. Because then I don't have to face the reality that what I want and what is possible are two different things. And that is the clutch for anybody staying in this toxic relationship. You're dealing with a real, actual, like physiological, addiction to your dynamic. And then you nobody wants their family to break apart. Like nobody wants that, nobody wants to have to go through all of that, like you have every right to feel all those things and think all of those things. But then what is the alternative? Right, like what does future, what does the future look like for you? Down that staying in this path? Like God only knows, you know.
Speaker 1:You know what did it? Another thing I want to bring up is Dr Wayne Dyer. I was listening, I mean the late Dr Wayne Dyer, and he would always say in any of his books, whatever, don't die wondering. And that was like a big thing, like I would never know what my life would be without him. So I'm like I'm not going to die wondering, so I need to you know you know do that.
Speaker 1:And then to Dr Joe Dispenza. I've been doing a lot of Dr Joe Dispenza's work. You know, if you want to live in a different personal reality because you don't like that personal reality, you gotta. You gotta change at the identity level, and that is dropping the excuses. And and again, if we are addicted to these emotions, we're also addicted to the, our victimhood like oh you know I can't do it by myself, and this and this.
Speaker 1:So that is also being real with ourselves too, and I know the women listening right now it's like, oh, it's easy. No, it ain't. No, it's not. I'm recording here in the closet, my parents house, I'm living with my parents, like it doesn't matter, because I would always say, oh, you know, when I'm able to like, when my business because I started my business not too long ago and it didn't take a minute and and then finally, I was like, you know, screw this. No, I choose me right now and I'm not gonna, you know, continue with those excuses. So it is a really, really, really, really hard look at yourself. And I have to also say that, once you make that decision and once you listen to this intuition, the synchronicity started happening, because when I would go back and start wondering, am I doing the right thing, something happens and shows me yes, you're doing the right thing. And then, the minute I would feel bad and would write about it, something happens. I'm like, uh-uh, do not feel bad. And I was literally talking to recording a message to kira.
Speaker 1:I took myself to dinner, uh, on wednesday, after I did like a somatic breathwork class, and I went, you know, to dinner, sat down by myself and I started journaling. And I started journaling oh, my goodness, I can't believe I'm going through with this. You know, like one through my culture, like I'm Lebanese, like, oh, people don't do that, and you know, whatever, and I'm writing, writing, writing going there, but I'm glad you're doing this, denise. So I'm talking to myself through the journal. And then I come to pay and then I look at the, the.
Speaker 1:I should have left like four dollars and eighty cents, because if I want to do the twenty percent, I'm like I'll just leave five dollars, and then the total was 31, 10. I'm like, there you go, 11, and that's another, like I. You know all of these synchronicities. When you tune in and when you truly, truly, truly love yourself, when you pay attention and listen to the intuition, the synchronicities start happening. Yes, it's difficult, it ain't easy and it's like it's, it's painful, but the journey and I don't want to die wondering and the journey, I'm looking forward to the journey forward to see who I'm going to be without that relationship, without that person, who am I? So?
Speaker 3:yeah, I love that so much and it's so funny because, like this is the one thing that, like often, my main clientele are high, high performing women who are on their last leg in their marriage. Right, they like they. That's, that's the majority. I work with people from all. I work with women who are single and are finding themselves in a pattern of repeating the same relationships. I work with women in their business partnerships like whatever right, but my the majority of like my niche, I would say is they're married and they're very unhappy with their marriage and they don't necessarily want a divorce, but they know they can't have the marriage they have. They're like they can't last and they come to me in the state of what should I do? And I was like that's not, that's not the question. So, if you're listening to this, that's not the question. You don't, you're not. If you're in a space of asking, should I stay or should I go, stop asking yourself that question.
Speaker 3:What you need to do is, like Denise just said, is you need to start focusing on you and how you show up every day in your life and what things you're actually sacrificing in your life that are in your best interest. Right, we are not sitting here talking about you, just being narcissistically selfish and serving you in that way it's. You are probably in a state where you, if you are in the spot, where you are just neglecting yourself all around, you're not going to the parties you want to go to, you're not showing up smiling with joy, you're not empowered, dancing in the kitchen, enjoying life and bringing light to your family, like that is the vibrance that I think all of us women want. We want to feel peace, we want to feel joy, we want to feel happy. And no, we're not talking about toxic positivity, because you know we're going to get angry, we're going to throw shit, we're going to get. You know what I mean we're going to get upset. But what I'm saying here is you need to look inward. I always say, hey, let's. What you need to do is release the outcome of your relationship completely Above all else.
Speaker 3:I always tell everyone this I go, I am in the business of absolutely saving viable marriages. I am pro marriage all the way, okay, and marriage is hard, and what makes marriage hard is you have your own ideas and conditioning from your upbringing and he has his, and you guys have to work on deprogramming that and reprogramming together. We are imperfect. Marriage is tough. That's what should make marriage tough. But you should have two people devoted to growing together and ultimately like for me and my model, it's God. Then you got the husband and the family right, and then the kids, and so it's like, if that's what you are talking about, it's still going to be challenging, but it's not going to be this hard, right. And so if you're in this spot where it's like should I say or should I go? I say don't. Right, I had one, one client in particular literally had a divorce.
Speaker 3:A coach lined up and then a cut like a consult with her and a consult with me and talking about energy. It was funny. Um, I was actually interviewed on her podcast, so she found that way. And so she came to me and I was just like, well then, don't leave. And she's like what do you mean? And I'm like, just, we're going to work together and we're going to start focusing in on you and everything that you need to do for yourself to feel authentically aligned in the path that you're walking in your life, and you're going to take your eyes off your marriage and you're going to just focus on you, and then you know what's going to happen. It will be completely crystal clear to you. There's there's scenario a he goes oh, that's the woman. I fricking married man, this is awesome. I want to do work too. And he starts working on himself. That happens, um, and that's the best case scenario. That's what we're hoping for, right? But it's not because she's bitching at him, it's not because sorry if I can't she's not because she's nagging.
Speaker 3:Okay, it's not because she's nagging him, it's not because she's complaining or criticizing. It's because she is stepping into her authentic, joyful self, right, and he notices that and that inspires him. That's the most influence we have is through our own actions. But if the scenario B right is a ladder and that was my story was it completely reveals to you the clarity of like oh, no matter how healthy I get, this ain't working right.
Speaker 3:You can't set boundaries with somebody who does not have your best interests at heart. They're not interested in your boundaries, they're interested in their own comfort and they're interested in you as long as you fit into that comfort. And that will make it apparently clear, like, evidently clear, as soon as you get healthy. And then you'll go oh, yep, I can leave, right, like, this is the, this is the breaking point, Right, but it's a process for everybody and I and I don't know, denise, care, I mean like what you guys think, cause it's like, when we look at the question of like, is there a way for women to know this and recognize this earlier? And I thought, I thought about that myself in my own journey because I'm like God, that's so long, like I could have saved myself, so much time I could have.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, when, if and only if, and all this stuff, and I, I look back and I'm like you know what, though, like there's no way I'd be able to work with women at the capacity I work with them at right now and hold the space of compassion that I have for them without walking through that journey right now, right Like, so on.
Speaker 3:That I think I was just, that was my story and that was what I was designed to do, and it brought me through my level of healing and it fully equipped me to do what I feel like, truthfully, like God called me to do on this world. But I don't know, you know, if there is a way to help people realize it earlier, other than encouraging them to stop focusing on your marriage so much and start focusing on you, like start getting into growth and development, but that's a whole. Other People usually need to be at bottom before they start going into growth and development, but that's a whole. Other people usually need to be at bottom before they start going into growth and development too. I'm sure you ladies have your own paths and journeys with that too.
Speaker 2:I mean, I, denise and I are probably going to agree on that, because you know we've talked about this so many times. But, like A, the past doesn't exist anymore. Right, it's, it's gone, it's done, and we can't have regrets for something that's done and it's part of your journey. Maybe, maybe people could have recognized signs, but maybe they needed to go through it, as painful as it was to get them to the place that they are. Like, Denise, I'm going to put you on the spot here, but, if I like, held up a mirror to you 10 years ago and you said, oh my gosh, this isn't working. Yeah, what would that have done for you?
Speaker 1:I wasn't ready, I was in denial. I told you about that, so, and I needed all those lessons and all those opportunities and the and, to be honest, I mean I started the healing journey when we started the mindset work. You know, we, akira and I, started doing the health coaching and we're doing the programs you know, leading women into like challenges and like eating healthy, et cetera, et cetera. And then, one day, we started with the mindset and, honestly, the mindset started with Kira having some money issues and like charging, and I was like, oh, you need this. And then she started going down the rabbit hole and finding more people that she listens to. And then she's like, wait a minute, why don't we do this whole mindset makeover thing? I was like, oh, perfect, and we just started falling in love with it, and that's how it started. It did start because I was.
Speaker 1:I wasn't looking, I was in denial. Yes, there were plenty of signs and I wasn't looking, but I did take control. And, the end of the day, though, you take accountability, I took accountability and I was like I'm the one who chose to uh, to ignore the red flags, I'm the one who chose to be in denial, etc. Etc. And uh, but, but again, I took those opportunities as lessons, yes, so I have days where I'm like I'm crying, like why didn't I do this earlier, however, as Kira says, and I would leave her voice messages and I she'd leave me ones like she has other things that she's working on and I remind her of her path, and then she reminds me of mine and, at the end of the day, probably I wouldn't have been able to do what I needed to do If I looked 10 years ago. It could have been painless, but I wouldn't know. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:So I totally believe that also. I mean, if we're talking about, I mean I love that we are also I'm, you know, a woman of faith too, but I feel that God definitely, you know, has a path for you and that is your divine timing and God's timing and it's the journey. And then I totally feel that when you're not listening, that it gets really loud. So a few months ago, uh, because I was in also confusion land and I would, I would give the excuses, but a few months ago it started being really, really, really loud on his behalf. So I believe that God was working in mysterious ways on that part so I could see clearly, clearly, and so I totally I don't feel, I don't believe in coincidences. I believe that we're constantly guided. It's just us and we've talked about this on the show many times it is us viewing all of those as opportunities to grow and not to stay stagnant. And that was my main thing. I don't like staying stagnant.
Speaker 3:Yep, yeah, no, it's good. I. I like how you talked about like it was my choice, right, and I I've worked on this with myself and so many clients too. Cause, walking through that in my own journey, it was like and I work with a lot of women again like going back to like, if you don't do this work on yourself and you just leave, get ready for round two and round three, because you will continue to attract what we call wound mates, right, it's like you're going to continue to attract men who will fulfill and bring up and press in the unhealed wound that you have not fixed yet or healed not fixed I like that word healed from, because that's just that's just what we do.
Speaker 3:I do a lot of work in attachment, attachment theory and like how you basically are either you're anxious, attached, you're dismissive, attached, you're anxious, you're anxious, dismissive, or you're oh my gosh, disorganized Thank you, disorganized or secure. So I do a lot of work in that area and it's so interesting because it's it's the real empowering work that you've got to do is you've got it. You do have to go back and you have to draw the lines from like where did I learn this kind of behavior? Right, like, where did this all come from? And the why. So, yes, you chose that and I chose this, I chose this man, you chose that man, but why?
Speaker 3:Right, it's like there's this difference between look, I'm gonna I'm not shaming myself for my choice, I'm not beating myself up for that choice, but I want to get clear on why I made that choice and so I can make sure I don't make that same choice again. Right, like, and that, I think, is the most empowering thing, cause I think it's really easy for women to also come into space of like, well, I chose them. Well, clearly, I just choose bad men. And it's like, no, there's there's, yeah, okay, there's truth to that, but instead of making that your identity and your story, let's say hey, based off of my childhood conditioning and attachment styles, I have one thing, that one type of person I am attracted to and I'm going to do better and I can and I'm going to learn from that, and this is what I'm going to do.
Speaker 1:So it goes back to your own healing journey and making sure that you're clear on why you chose that person, absolutely, absolutely and I love how you mentioned this get ready for round two and round three, because I have seen women. You do that, like you know, they divorce and immediately jump into another relationship within six months and I'm like dude, you know, take the time. So, exactly like you have attracted this person in your life. And I also want to mention, you know, katie and uh, kind of correct me if I'm wrong, but this can be applied to, you know, business partnerships, right?
Speaker 3:or an apprenticeship.
Speaker 1:It could apply to you know, your, your relationship with your parents, you know how much you're allowing, you know how much boundaries you're allowing them to cross, etc. So that I mean, definitely we're talking mainly about relationship between partners, but it could be domestic partners, you know, yeah, but it can definitely, you know, spill into other things. But before I continue, I know Kira had to leave to go pick up her kiddo, but it's just you and me right now and so, yeah, like I you've mentioned, so it is important that, even if you leave, or when you leave, this relationship or whatever it is to address, to address your healing journey, to continue healing journey and see and address those shadows, address why you have attracted this and what you want differently, and so you can, um, you know whether attract differently or do differently, or I mean and I'm gonna get into to be attracted to differently, differently and that could be.
Speaker 1:And that would jump me into the question of the identity shift, like what helped you, right? So you know, because we've also talked about it on the podcast, you want to change your reality, you want to change what you don't like in your reality. You got to have that identity shift. So what is? What is something that you had to do for yourself, katie? And then what is something that you maybe help some of the women that you work with? You work mainly with women, right, or do you also work with men? Okay, right, yeah, I'm in the intro. Duh, uh, what have you? What? What do you think helps them? Because sometimes it could be a little bit vague, like identity shift, what am I gonna, must, do? You know, I can say I am, I am, but what? What do I do?
Speaker 3:yeah, um, well, I like I said I I had to get very clear about my own patterns and the the uh as far as, like, how I was raised and how I attach to people and why I attach to them. Um, another thing that's really interesting and not talked about almost like honestly ever, is we focus very much on the caretaker relationship with the child, but you don't talk. You don't talk a lot about siblings, right, and how they felt they shaped your nervous system for crying out loud, right, and so it was like yes, overall, and I also like I really want to highlight this because this gets missed a lot is for women. You know, I just didn't really have any major trauma, I had a pretty good childhood and it's like no, don't do that to yourself. That kept me from getting healed for so long. I will say that that belief that I didn't really have a bad childhood and I didn't really have any major trauma and so my past isn't going to hold me back, forget that, I'm moving forward, guys. That kept me from growing for so long because I had this belief that I didn't deserve or need to go back and look at my past and learn from that, and we have to go back in order to move forward. Sometimes we don't as a coach, I don't live there, right, but we do need to connect the dots. And so, um, like I, I needed to go back and I needed to understand, like I was actually totally trained for this type of nervous system.
Speaker 3:Right, this inconsistency in relationship, this hot cold, never knowing who I'm going to get Dr Jekyll, dr, mr Hyde, like that was totally in my relationship with my older brother within my dad, like, and guys, if you want to just talk about as a society, with how emotionally inept we all are, we all were basically gaslighted over our emotions. Like, let's just get real. Okay, and I mean, yes, I'm using a blanket statement, but can you seriously tell me that there was one person who was like, emotionally present fully for their kids back in the day, when they didn't even know any of this stuff? Right, like, we're all just learning about this stuff for the most part, right, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, some better than others, right, for sure, but we all have our. So going back and going like, oh, that makes a lot of sense, right, like here, I thought I was picking somebody consciously that was very different from who I grew up with and in fact I was picking the. He's just had a different outfit on right, Same makeup, but just different outfit presented differently, and um, and so then, when I figured that out, I did some EMDR therapy, which I love, I'm a big fan of um.
Speaker 3:I then went into coaching because it was like okay, now that I know all of this and I've healed all of this, like how do I move forward? Right, and that's why I love coaching, because it's like all right, now that you have done some deep shadow work, what do we, where do we take you? And so some really practical stuff. When we talk about like identity shift, it's like well, yeah, like who do you, who do you actually want to be? And that wasn't something until I was in coaching. That was really introduced to me, right, it was like I literally get to be who I want to be, like how I had two, two practical things that I that I did that really helped me. That I think I, like women, would like to hear.
Speaker 3:I realized that I never, I never really had a truly safe relationship with any man. When I really looked at it, I was like I like emotionally safe, right, my, my father, overall, was a good man and he loved me and I love him. We have great relationship now, um, but he was not emotionally present at all and uh and so uh to to his, to any for whatever reason, for lots of reasons, for his own upbringing. And then, um, when I got clear about that and I was like, oh my gosh, my whole life I have never been truly attached to a man who felt really safe to me and I didn't trust any man. I realized that about myself.
Speaker 3:And this was after the counseling and therapy and coaching and I was like, so what can I do about this? And I took country swing dance lessons because I needed to be around men and I needed to feel safe and comfortable and kind of heal that part of myself, right and right, and it's like they have to lead me and I have to completely submit in the dance, which was super painful, and so it was a great practical practice. I recommend that. I recommend that for marriage period, but I recommend that for you if you're, if you're healing. And then I hired a male therapist. I was like I've only ever worked with women women and it would be very difficult for me to go back.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:I love that I love that and feel safe and dive in deep with another. You know, and so he was this. You know, great um, kind of father figure type male therapist that I hired and uh, and it was so hard at times, but also just so healing Cause. Then I left feeling supported and loved and validated by the masculine Right. So I I mean identity shift, denise. I think it's just like getting sitting down and really asking yourself like what type of life are you going to get to the end of your life and are you going to look back at you now and what do you want to change? Right? I love. I call it deathbed Katie exercise. I like to go visit myself on my deathbed. A lot People are like that's morbid. I'm like it's fantastic. She's very wise. She doesn't give a shit about what people think she's, she's just going to tell me how it is and if she's going to look back and go, hey, I want you to. I want you to just have fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I want you to just love your life and be grateful and not worry so much.
Speaker 1:Right and yeah, and I think a lot of us don't want to do that work. A lot of us don't want to do that work and it is, you know, and it's and Kira and I constantly are talking about it. You want to change, you want a different life. You got to do the work, you got to be honest with yourself and, like you said, do the deathbed exercise and a lot of people don't want to. Um, then, don't complain. That's my, my motto, right?
Speaker 3:Like, if you don't want to, it is scary.
Speaker 1:A lot of you know a lot of people do it, it's just you know. So, um, and then maybe sometimes this is what the journey leads Like you might be, you might. It might lead you to be fed up with it, for you to be like you know what I'm gonna do, the freaking exercise right now, because I've tried everything kind of like with me avoiding the shadow work, like I don't do shadow work. I don't want to go back to the past. I was like would listen to everybody that was focused only on the, the love and the Louise Hay and the present moment that occurred to lay and I'm like but I don't want to do shadow work until I was like dude, you need to do the work.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you a question really quickly. I saw this a long time ago. I don't remember why I saw it, but I don't know if you are aware of it. But we attract, whether women or men. We attract the type of you know partner that is very similar to the parent that we had the most conflict with. Is that true-ish, you think? Like? I don't know, I saw it long time ago, I don't remember where, but um, it makes sense to me so.
Speaker 3:I think it goes. I think so it's so funny because, like I always am like, look, this is what we know today, right, like we're still learning so much and we have so many theories about relationships and development and our brain, like we're just cracking into this, you guys, right, like so, um, I think that it's, there's a like coral, a lot of correlative, like correlative research that indicates that that would make a lot of sense. Like, going back to attachment styles, if you are, you know, an anxious attached person or okay, sorry, let me scratch that If you have an anxious attachment, because this is not an identity, this is just something you can heal, heal, heal with. And if you, if you do, you look at your parent, diet, parent dynamic, um, and if you, if you do, you look at your parent, diet, parent dynamic, and it's from a place of that same kind of withdrawal and inconsistent emotional care. Right, and this doesn't have to be super traumatic, it can be, but it can be just as simple.
Speaker 3:As you know, you're crying and go take care of it on your own and I'm going to shut you in your room until you're done crying, cause I don't have any idea how else to deal with your emotions and the child, you know, goes inward and goes something's wrong with me, like I must not, I must not be okay, because my caretaker doesn't want me right now. Because I'm feeling these feelings. So something must be wrong with me and that allows them to have that attachment. But now it's like I don't know if I'm going to get I'm going to get love, I'm going to get praise, or I'm going to get it. And so then you find yourself oh, guess, guess who you're going to be attracted to.
Speaker 3:Guess who you're going to be attracted to? Well, you're going to be attracted to that dismissive type. This is why those, when you look at attachment theory, dismissive and anxious, are very commonly coupled up, because they are literally mimicking the very wounds that they experienced in childhood and that inconsistency of emotional support. So, yeah, I I don't know if we can, if we can narrow it down to like the parent, right, cause I also like, look at my own journey and I look at him like there's a little bit of the little bit of mom and a little bit of dad, like I think it's, but I think it would make sense because, um, another thing that, like today, that they're saying is uh, and that I see very evidently in my work is that, um, you are going to attract that person that brings to the surface the very thing you didn't feel like you could fix in your childhood.
Speaker 1:Hmm Interesting. So, like for me.
Speaker 3:I was obsessed with just getting married and having kids. I thought that was literally like the goal. I was like I didn't have huge like business ambitions or anything like that and I was like if I could just lock a man in and I can get married, then I can. And now, after the fact, I can re, I can create and heal myself by creating the family and being the parent I really wanted to have as a kid. Right, like we're trying to self parent ourselves. I see, yeah, right, in that way, like we're, so we're trying to recreate, like I can fix this myself.
Speaker 3:I didn't get it when I was younger, so I'm going to fix it now, right, yeah, and I think that's, I think that would make sense. Why you would also be attracted to somebody who was like your dad. If you had you know they call them daddy issues, like who doesn't when you go in, when you go in and you're like, hey, I, this is like my dad because he gave me very inconsistent love and affection and attention, and so do you. And so, if I get, if I, if that's what I know, and we are always attracted to what we know and what we've experienced most, even if, on a conscious level. We don't want that. That's I always say. It's like you didn't sorry, I'm getting off, but you didn't, you didn't, you didn't fall for them in spite of their red flags. You actually stayed because of them, got it Right.
Speaker 3:Like that's actually what solidified you in the relationship. You liked a lot of other things about him, but when you saw those red flags you actually solidified it. That's the trauma bond in and of itself. It was like, oh cause, if I can fix that with us, then I fixed me. It's that yearning of wanting to heal.
Speaker 1:And that's where we end up in trauma bonds. Nice, oh my goodness, like a lot of amazing. And I know we didn't cover the questions because guess what we did better. Um, katie, I know we're approaching toward the end. Um, what is one thing, uh, that you can tell the woman listening right now, you know, to maybe think about, not to do, to think about, think about the woman who is, like, on the verge of like, on the precipice On the precipice.
Speaker 3:About to jump which fork in the road right I take? Um, yeah, my, my biggest piece of advice is to say that it is not black and white, okay, and your journey is your journey and nobody else can live it or decide it for you, which I know that can seem like really vague, but in saying that I mean that's where we go back to, that Should I stay or should I go? And it comes back down to you need to ask yourself if you're in a state of confusion. That's not the time to make decisions, okay, and you need to. Like you just said, denise right, and me we were both struggling on going back. Who wants to drudge that stuff up, right, like? Who wants to relive that stuff? And my, my biggest thing is you need to actually allow yourself to think about those kinds of things that you need to, you're going to need to dive into, you're going to need to start working on within yourself, and so I guess, in my word, vomit here.
Speaker 3:I would say I would say start, start identifying ways in your life that you show up that you don't like and this isn't. I love that. That's deep. Yeah, it's, it was. That was a big part for me because it was like look, even though he does this, that and the other, like I hate the way I, I hate the person I become when I'm in an argument with him, like that's not who I want. That's not who I am, that's not who I want to be, so why?
Speaker 1:am I why?
Speaker 3:why am I coming? Why? Why oh, I love that why am I coming out like this, right, like and that will lead you down a lot of clarity because, again, it's not about taking on the full responsibility of the state of the relationship, but you do need to take responsibility for your part. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that will.
Speaker 3:that in and of itself, will reveal a lot of really great basically the path you need to be on towards your healing, and then things will be clear. Things will get clear. You will feel more empowered. You will see more paths to say oh okay, I can do this. You know like maybe it's not divorce tomorrow, maybe it's a separation. You know like there's gray, there's lots of different options and maybe maybe it's. I just needed to take a break and I need to work on me and you need to work on you and we'll see where we land in all this. You know like there's lots of different options. It's not black or white.
Speaker 1:I love that. Thank you so much. And before we end this, this podcast, where can our listeners find you? I know you have a free training that we are going to put in the show notes. Maybe you can talk briefly about that, and where else can they find you? And we're definitely going to list everything in the show notes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm on TikTok and Instagram under intimacy, underscore revolution, and then, and Katie Mae, so K I, e, m A E, so you can find me either either place there. I have a free Facebook group called intimacy revolution and you can find me there. So, yep, that's pretty much it. And then my free training is my I. It's not, it's not new communication tools, but it's a different acronym and it helps everybody kind of align. It's called the OBS communication method, where I specifically designed this framework for navigating difficult conversations and basically it turns conflict into connection. So, if you struggle with tough conversations, if you aren't showing up the right way, that you want to show up in conflict, if you're shutting down, if you're lashing out, if you you know you get lost for words, whatever it is, if you want to be better at how to communicate, you need to follow this framework. And then, if you struggle with this framework, that's usually an indication as to there's deeper healing that needs to take place.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you so much, and so welcome.
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yes, it was an amazing topic and I hope that you enjoyed it just like I did. And, just as usual, make sure that you share it at least with one friend that needs to hear this. So maybe you know that friend is on the verge, not on the precipice, and you know, definitely always leave us a review and tell us what other topics you want to talk about and we'll see you at the next episode. Bye.
